BW 2018 Feedback

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby ninja_bait » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:50 pm

stubby wrote:Commanders got changed a little bit to fit into the new Campaign rules, and to force their team to work for their Strategy bricks.


Reasonable changes, though I suspect that once we try it we will find that the commander himself still needs incentive to do something in battle besides hiding.  That's why with Fried Tomatoes the commander must remain in the thick of the battle and receives an additional bonus for getting kills himself.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby stubby » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:28 pm

Originally, the hiding was a balancing factor - you got this guy who could increase your forces unfairly, but he couldn't participate in the fight, so you were one man down until he called in that unfair advantage. Meanwhile he's hiding out in the back line, making himself a more and more valuable target each turn he piles on another strategy brick.

So it'd be nice to force him into positions of danger - maybe he has to be in range and "see" the enemy casualties in order to get strategy from their deaths - but I want to preserve that disadvantage of having one fewer minifig actively fighting.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby ninja_bait » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:36 pm

Interesting.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby stubby » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:33 pm

Continuing to fill things in; some 30 or 40 new or updated photos and illustrations, still slowly filling in the Campaigns rules.

Look for big updates in Chapter 10: Creatures today, where a couple things got rearranged in the Minds section (Mob Rule is now at the bottom of 10.1: Minds in preparation for rearranging some later chapters). 10.3: Animals got expanded to cover animals in more depth, and 10.4: Monsters has been added back in with simpler versions of some favorite monsters from earlier editions.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby ReconMiner » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:30 pm

Looks sweet! Great to see the pic from the Battle for the Glory of Satan.
One question I have, where in the rules does it talk about a Ram attack? I saw it mentioned for BlokBots but can't find it anywhere else.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby stubby » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:33 pm

It's one of the Natural Attacks at the bottom of 10.3.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby Vason » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:57 pm

stubby wrote:Originally, the hiding was a balancing factor - you got this guy who could increase your forces unfairly, but he couldn't participate in the fight, so you were one man down until he called in that unfair advantage. Meanwhile he's hiding out in the back line, making himself a more and more valuable target each turn he piles on another strategy brick.

So it'd be nice to force him into positions of danger - maybe he has to be in range and "see" the enemy casualties in order to get strategy from their deaths - but I want to preserve that disadvantage of having one fewer minifig actively fighting.


Perhaps he needs to have Binocs/telescope/etc in one hand, and a Radio/comms/etc in the other?
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby domminniti » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:27 am

Hi

I think the icons in the capitalism table for supports are mixed up.

As for feedback, I've played a few games with 2010 vs 2018 rules for CC.
I'm not sure which one I like more. I think I much prefer parrying only with shields, having the option to parry with weapons promoted passivity and defensiveness and made fights boil down to waiting for crit fails or success when dealing with 1h weapons. However lack of counterattacks reduced tactical options and gives no reason not to attempt a push with a shield as you'll be able to parry the attack on the enemies turn anyway.
Has anyone tried a halfway system with counter attacks but without weapon parries? What about a system where weapon parries have a general penalty, say -2 except for shields, making shields the king of parries and increasing the risk of parrying with weapons? I want a system with interesting risk/reward decisions.
2018 is better for larger battles but can sometimes feel a bit empty for skirmishes
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby stubby » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:00 am

domminniti wrote:I think the icons in the capitalism table for supports are mixed up.

Huh. You're right, they are. I wonder what happened there.

domminniti wrote:As for feedback, I've played a few games with 2010 vs 2018 rules for CC.
I'm not sure which one I like more. I think I much prefer parrying only with shields, having the option to parry with weapons promoted passivity and defensiveness and made fights boil down to waiting for crit fails or success when dealing with 1h weapons.

I packed the more complex fighting into the Hero's Dueling specialty, with the idea that eventually I'll spread it around to other close combat focused specialist units. The trick is figuring out where the risk/reward decisions are going to be interesting, and where they're just extra complexity with no benefit. Giving the full close combat options to every minifig on the field was too much; restricting them only to Heroes is probably too little.

domminniti wrote:However lack of counterattacks reduced tactical options and gives no reason not to attempt a push with a shield as you'll be able to parry the attack on the enemies turn anyway.

Remember that unlike 2010, you can't make a weapon attack and a shove in the same turn under the 2018 rules (unless you're a Hero); attempting that push means you give up the attack option. So there's still a tradeoff, just on a different axis.

domminniti wrote:Has anyone tried a halfway system with counter attacks but without weapon parries? What about a system where weapon parries have a general penalty, say -2 except for shields, making shields the king of parries and increasing the risk of parrying with weapons? I want a system with interesting risk/reward decisions.
2018 is better for larger battles but can sometimes feel a bit empty for skirmishes

I've definitely considered bringing back counterattacks for all minifigs, either after each active maneuver (maneuver -> parry -> counterattack -> counterparry) or just once after the active combatant finishes manuevers (maneuver -> parry -> 2nd maneuver -> 2nd parry -> counterattack -> counterparry). In either case, the ability to parry with weapons and to combine different maneuver types would still be Heroes only.

My standard for "interesting decisions" has changed over the years. I've moved away from focusing on where to put +1s and +2s for best tactical advantage, to focusing on whether an option increases or decreases the potential for action. Parries nullify action, so I want to discourage them. They may be interesting at the decision level but they lead to boring results at the action level. Counterattacks increase action, so I can give them a bigger potential chunk of the player attention span budget.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby domminniti » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:00 am

stubby wrote:I packed the more complex fighting into the Hero's Dueling specialty, with the idea that eventually I'll spread it around to other close combat focused specialist units. The trick is figuring out where the risk/reward decisions are going to be interesting, and where they're just extra complexity with no benefit. Giving the full close combat options to every minifig on the field was too much; restricting them only to Heroes is probably too little.


The other thing I think that needs thinking about is how to visually tell which units have these special rules - thats what I like about the system - most rules need to have bricks associated with them and have a equal cost - so I would like it if CC specialists had to carry or wear something interesting that gave them a real negative apart from just a dubuff to range attacks (which most will never use, so its not really a  dubuff   ). I like the idea that all figs are acually the same and its just ego, costumes and what they're holding that seperate them. Makes it much easier to play too.

stubby wrote:  
Remember that unlike 2010, you can't make a weapon attack and a shove in the same turn under the 2018 rules (unless you're a Hero); attempting that push means you give up the attack option. So there's still a tradeoff, just on a different axis.  
  

I didn't pick up on this at all - so to confirm, if I elect for my first attack to be a shield push, then I can't follow up with a strike with my second hand with short weapon?  You choose strikes, grabs or shove as your CC type then go thought weapons. So likewise I couldn't use one hand to grab, then use the other hand with short weapon to land a guaranteed hit.

stubby wrote:  
I've definitely considered bringing back counterattacks for all minifigs, either after each active maneuver (maneuver -> parry -> counterattack -> counterparry) or just once after the active combatant finishes manuevers (maneuver -> parry -> 2nd maneuver -> 2nd parry -> counterattack -> counterparry). In either case, the ability to parry with weapons and to combine different maneuver types would still be Heroes only.
  

I like this idea. I'll play with the 2nd option and report back. I like it because it cuts down on rolls and makes the phase more in the advantage of the active player. The only type of unit it seems to affect over the first option is 2 hand weapon guys - their buffed in their turn and nerfed in the opponents turn - which seems right flavour wise - if your a crazy dual weilder you go ham when you have the initiative but get overwhelmed on the defensive

stubby wrote:    
My standard for "interesting decisions" has changed over the years. I've moved away from focusing on where to put +1s and +2s for best tactical advantage, to focusing on whether an option increases or decreases the potential for action. Parries nullify action, so I want to discourage them. They may be interesting at the decision level but they lead to boring results at the action level. Counterattacks increase action, so I can give them a bigger potential chunk of the player attention span budget.

[/quote]    
Good point - pluses and minuses are evil - I forget to apply them a lot.  And I do find parries are narrative boring. When my dude sprints towards his enemy, says a one liner and makes a swipe for his head its so dull when his enemy rolls a 2 up for defection and 'nothing happens'.
I was suggesting this to mean more parry fails and therefore more disarmaments, but I agree that it still slows down the game too much.  I'd like more disarmanents in fights as they are a great way of developing narrative fights, interesting decisions and tactical advantages and turnarounds.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby domminniti » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:24 pm

Hi

Apologies for the double post.

I think the rulebook does a brilliant job of introducing concepts in an understandable way, but I think it's not as strong as a reference document.  I thought it would be good to try and make a flowchart for combat so I'd remember what order to do things and remember all the particular rules for MOCs.  It got a bit complicated! I've ended up changing the definitions of some of the combat mechanics, whist keeping the rules more or less the same (apart from a couple of things, units larger than minfigs can do a shove then a strike if they have the power).

But I have re-defined things a little. For example its the 'aiming' that costs an action, as it wasnt clear to me when a unit reqired an action to engage in CC in the previous system, and this maybe clears up the 'can I fire multiple weapons' question.
I've tried to combine ranged and CC into one flowchart and just made all attacks sort of equal, and added double power requirements to shove and grab to stop mini-figs wombo-comboing. I think with this you could attack an enemy with a sword, then disengage and shoot the same target with a pistol, if you survive the counter strike. But you couldn't aim at someone else.

The overall flow is

Aim Attack
Response Action (bail/attack)
Parry
Roll to Hit / near miss
Apply Hit effects (damage, knockback etc)
Duellists can counter
Chargers charge forward (perhaps collisions) otherwise go back to Aim Attack with that unit or another unit

I would like to combine parry and response action, but response actions require an action, but parries just require a weapon/hand and power

Obviously formatting here is not great, but I thought I'd get it down in text and then maybe do it in easier to visualise boxes like a flowchart. And I think the overall nomenclature could use tightening up.

I'd love some help with this! Maybe you think its more confusing this way and it would be better to split it back to how it is in the rule book, and just have it written in flow chart form. It would be do-able but would probably require a lot of repeat information in the flowchart

Choose Combat Manoeuvre Type
    Disengage
    Attack        
            Strike
            Spends WepSize of Power
            Range CC
            Requires
                Any weapon or object
        Shove
            Spends min 2 power, even with 1 hand/shield, unless Duelist
            Range CC  
            Combined size of shovers must equal size of target
            Requires
                2 empty hands
                or 2h weapon
                or Sheild
                or Animals    
        Grab            
            Spends min 2 power, even with 1 hand, unless Duelist        
            Range CC    
            Requires
                Free hand or grabber
                or Mouth
        Ranged Attack
            Spends wepSize Power
            Standard
                Any ranged, except shotgun and flamethrower.
                Thrown weapons up to Wsize < 2x effective size
            Arc
                Shotguns, flamethrowers, Machine Guns
            Ranged Burst
                Machine Guns

Disengage
    Up to 3 opponents may counter-strike
        counter-strikers get free action to target disengager if required
        Counter Strike
            counter-strikers must
                have ability to make CC Attack with use of Angry Inch
                have power and weapons to make CC attack
                not be disrupted
                be able to see disengager in cone of vision
            spends counter-strikers' action
            can only attack with 1 weapon per counter-strike
    Disengager may opt to spend action Parry or Bail, just as if they were the target of a normal attack
    If disengager survives may take Angry Inch and then move freely and act freely
        if disengager moves out of range of CC weapons no longer in CC

Attack
    Select Attacker(s) and Weapons - select multiple for combined damage
        Keep in mind limits to attackers from CC attacks
        Attackers must
            Have enough power and unused weapons to attack with
            Have action or already be aiming at the target from a previous attack this turn
            if Ranged Attack
            If unit engaged in CC, it must Disengage first, giving option of Counter-Strikes
            Must have line of sight or a good idea of location for blind fire, or a spotter for indirect fire
        if CC Attack
            Must be able to get in range for a valid attack
            if not engaged in CC may use one of the following to get into CC Range
                Move + Angry Inch
                Charge with move
                Charge with move plus sprint (with free aim at target)
            If Engaged in CC may only use Angry Inch to get into range
    
        
    Choose Damage Type
        Standard Size damage    
        Standard Component
        Grinding Component
        N/A (for push and grab)
    
    
    Aim at Target (or arc direction)
        If this is a new target (or arc direction) this turn for this Attacker
            The Attacker requires an action, which is now spent
        no mini-fig can be the target of more than 3 CC attackers per turn
            how does this rule apply for non 1" units?
        May be a part of a unit for component damage

    For each attack against target
         Extra attacks on a target for Bursts, and an extra attack for each point of arc that the target spans completely  
        (Note, any identical attacks can be rolled simultaneously, apart from burst and arc fire due to reloads, and CC attacks against dualists due to counterstrikes)
        
        Defender may choose a Response Action - Bail or Preemptive Attack        
            
            Defender must
                have an action
                not be disrupted
                be able to see attack in cone of vision    
                vs ranged attacks
                    not be in CC        
            Bail    
                Spends action        
                Bail Knockback = ActionRoll - 1d4 x FireLevel
                Deflection armoured bail at half speed
                Over the Top  Action can remove disruption or add d6 to distance
                Critical Fail is fall and disrupted where stood        
        
    
            Preemptive Attack
                Can use action to return fire with a Ranged Attack or CC Attack.
                May use Angry Inch to get into position
                1" longer weapon hits first for CC, otherwise simultaneous
                
        Defender May opt to Parry
        Parry
            Parrying object must be unused
            Spends parryer's action if unspent
            Parryer must
                not be disrupted
                be able to see attack in cone of vision
                be smaller than double the attacker's size
            Parry with use rating for object used to parry
            Standard Modifiers To Parry
                +1 per 2" of attacking  weapon size
                -1 if outnumbered
                -d4 per fire level

            Strike & Ranged Attack
                Shield only
                Duellists may parry with weapon as well
                
                Parry Success
                    Gain deflection x shield size
                Parry Crit Success
                    +deflection
                Parry Crit Fail
                    shield knocked away 1" x attacker's roll
    
            Shove        
                -2 per 1" attacker bigger than defender

                Parry Success
                    Shove cancelled
                Parry Crit Success
                    Shove or Grab or Strike them back?
                Parry crit Fail
                    weapon knocked away 1" x attacker's roll
                    Add damage?

                    
            Grab                
                Parry Sucess
                    Grab cancelled
                Parry Crit Success
                    Shove or Grab or Strike them back?
                Parry crit Fail
                    weapon knocked away 1"Xattacker's roll
                    Add damage?



        Roll to Hit
            if ranged Calculate range Out of Range penalty
                OOR = Weapon range  +1 per 1" altitude difference - distance to target
            Using a weapon spends
                The attacking unit's power,equal to the weapon's size
                The use of that weapon for the turn    
            Some units get d8 skill if not moved this turn
            Modfiers to hit    
                + Target Size Modifier                    
                -d4 per fire level
                -5 for blind fire    
                -1 if outnumbered when attacking from CC
                Ranged Only    
                     +1 if target disrupted                         
                    -1 per 1" Out of Range
                    -1 per auto penalty
                    +1 per "home in" bonus
                    +1 per gunnery support bonus
                CC Only                        
                    if target disrupted - autohit
                    if target is stopped by a grab, or is grabbing, or if attacker is grabbing target -autohit
                Shove & Grab Only
                        If attacker 2x bigger than target
                            use rating is attacker's size
                        else autohit    

                if natural 6+ - Over the Top - choose one
                    +1d6 to action to hit
                    +1 damage dice
                    +1d6 to knockback if weapon has it
                    +d6 to range if weapon has it
                     Target smaller nearby component
                if natural max may add 1d6 to that roll as a Bonus Dice
        
                if Machine Gun in Arc or Burst Mode
                    if natural roll < auto penalty
                        Out of Ammo - Stop here and require reload next turn
        
            Target Hit if Result + Modifiers >= Weapon Use
        
        if Miss and not Arc Fire
            defender can nominate a koincidental Hit of his choice (Die Result + Modifiers - WeaponUse) inches away from target
        
        if Hit
            Shove
                target takes 2" knockback
                    What about size differnce? is there a bonus knockback?
                if charge
                    Attacker can spend MOM for D10 knockback
                Apply knockback inches
                    if hits larger object
                        knocked back unit stops
                        apply 1 Smash Damage per inch stopped
                    if stopped same size object or smaller?
                        they get knocked back remaining inches too?

            Grab
                Attacker has now grabbed target -  until grabber is killed, shoved or releases grab (free action at any point)
                If target size <= grabber size - target is stopped and everyone gets auto hits against both.    
                if grabber size < target size, target is not slowed and only they get auto hits against each other
                                if combined grabber size >= target size , target is slowed half speed and only they get auto hits against each other
            
            Ranged or Strike            
                Remove any die due to deflection from each damage source
                    (weapon +1 and +2 damages are not removed and cumulative)
                    Armour Pearcing, (eg Heavy weapons, if used 2h) remove the +2, not the d6
                Target Heros may attempt redshirting once per combined attack
                    Free action
                    Nominate redshirt
                    roll hero's action
                    redshirt leaps that distance to intercept (heavy armour half speed)
                

                Charge
                    May spend MOM on +1 Action Dice of Damage limited by Charging WepSize
                Roll Damage Dice - combine any critical rolls                    
                    Modifiers
                        -d4 per fire level
                        Ranged only
                            -1 per Out of Range
                            +1s on long range weapons
                        CC Only
                            -1 for tool, -2 for random object
                            +2 for undeflected or 1h Heavy Weapons    
                        if Explosion, Blast or Arc Fire
                            + Target Size Modifier
                        if Blast Fire
                            -1 per inch range                    
        
                Track alternative effects                
                    Fire    
                        remove die due to deflection
                        for each die of fire damage
                                if fire damage +- modifiers > defender weight class (no of original d10s) and not critical fail                                                            
                                    Firelevel +1 up to unit size                                    
                                    create/ alter field hazard to match fire level        
                    Explosives            
                        use 1x d10 damage per explosive size
                        Roll all d10 damage dice
                            Roll bonus d6s, keeping them by their original d10s    
                        for each 2" radius from explosion center
                            for each object OR component in explosion radius                                
                                Deal Damage
                                    + 1 Damage x Target Size Modifier
                                    subtract score of highest rolling dice including bonuses per level of deflection
                                    Damage accumulates with any previous damage from ranged attacks    and armour rolls etc
                                Apply 1" Knockback per remaining D10s  (including set aside deflection dice)
                                remove highest d10 and any associated bonus d6s
            
                    Concussion
                        +d6 Knockback resisted by POP per concussion dice
            
                    Blast
                        if blast and target size < weapon size, add 1" Knockback                

                Deliver Damage        
                    Grinding Damage
                        For every die that comes up > weight class (starting D10s)
                            +1 grinding Damage to component
                    Standard Damage
                        Roll Armour / compare to remaining Armour - combine critical roles
                            -d4 per fire level
                            -1 per grinding level
                        if Damage > Armour
                            Size damage
                                Remove 1 effective size
                                Destroyed if 0 effective size
                                look for overkill to remove next size, or unit behind
                            Component Damage
                                Component removed
                                look for overkill component
                        if Damage = Armour
                            Stun or disrupt, or remove limb, or some minor damage, or 1 grinding damage
                        if damage< Armour
                            Keep note of remaining armour            
    
                    
                If target alive
                    if "loose" Deliver Knockback
                        if Charge    
                            Spend MOM on Crash Thrust=  +d6 MOM -d6 POP (target effective size)
                                if Crash Thrust <=0
                                    Charger Stops
                                if Crash Thrust > 0
                                    Charger loses POP x MOMs    and continues
                                    Crash Thrust added to Knockback
                        +1" for each 1" of attacker weapon size - target effective size
                        Apply Knockback inches
                            if hits larger object
                                knocked back unit stops
                                apply 1 Smash Damage per inch stopped
                            if stopped same size object or smaller?
                                they get knocked back remaining inches too?
        
            If target alive
                If target is Duellist and in CC of attacker
                    May CC Counter-Strike
                
    If Charge
        Unit can only attack a target once per charge, so must carry on to the limit of its move inches
        If Collision
            if target Disrupted
                1 Damage x size difference to smaller squashed unit
            else     
                If target or charger has weight >=1 (starting d10s) Crash Damage
                        both units deliver d6 x(weight -deflection) limited by total MOMs to the other unit        
                        MOM is not spent on crash damage    
                if target loose    
                    Spend MOM on Crash Thrust=  +d6 MOM -d6 POP (target effective size)
                    if Crash Thrust <=0
                        Charger Stops
                    if Crash Thrust > 0
                        Charger loses POP x MOMs    and continues
                        Crash Thrust added to Knockback
            
                    Apply Knockback inches
                        if hits larger object
                            knocked back unit stops
                            apply 1 Smash Damage per inch stopped
                        if stopped same size object or smaller?                                
                            they get knocked back remaining inches too?
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby Tzan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:32 pm

Yes.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby stubby » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:27 am

I've got a bunch to say in response here but the baby is not having it. You'd be amazed how much a baby can disrupt your ability to type when he throws his full weight into it. So I'll try to hit these one as a time as I'm able to.

domminniti wrote:most rules need to have bricks associated with them and have a equal cost - so I would like it if CC specialists had to carry or wear something interesting that gave them a real negative apart from just a dubuff to range attacks (which most will never use, so its not really a  dubuff   ).

Most of the time I don't feel like persistent debuffs are that thematically satisfying, especially if it's something unrelated to the bonus. A CC bonus balanced by a ranged debuff is just dumb, and I'm dumb for ever using that idea (I think with Ninjas at some point?). Even if it balanced the unit, it feels kludgey and stupid, and I'd rather have units that feel fun and thematic even if it means they're not balanced to be perfectly equal to a stock minifig.

Ideally I want minifig units to be completely normal except when they're actively using their specialty, so that players don't have to waste brainspace remembering the extra details except when they're specifically using the special ability.

Part of what's eventually going to balance these guys is the equipment loadout, especially now that equipment is based on the hands requirement. A minifig can start a battle with anything, but a rifleman has to start with a rifle, a heavy has to start with a heavy weapon, etc. This can get limiting as a campaign drags on.

The other thing that's going to balance these guys is that I'm moving 90% of them over to the campaign rules. Core rules get the minifig (no limit) and the hero (limit one). Moc combat gets the mechanik (tool requirement / one hand used up), heavy (weapon limitation and move debuff), gunner (mounted weapon requirement), medik (tool requirement / one hand used up), and pilot (vehicle requirement). The campaign rules get everybody else, and that's where committing to specific specialists (and specialist production capacities) becomes its own limitation.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby domminniti » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:01 am

The hands rule works very well for non combat specialists - give them a thing that they have to carry that makes them worse in combat for extra utility outside of it. If it's a more combat oriented specialist it gets harder to do that with hands though, as most would like both hands for combat. The Heavy seems like a good trade off in terms of rules on paper, but gameplay wise I often forget about the different armour and move values. I think they would still work just with big weapon and the need not to move to use them, which works more with your principle of specialities only really affecting the phase they are concerned with.

Perhaps any CC specialism would offer a downside like Overconfidence: this minifigs abilities in close combat instil them with a foolhardy overconfidence. If they kill an enemy unit they can't help but pause to say a witty one liner or strike a dashing pose, giving up to 3 minifig sized enemies with unused hands the opportunity to counter strike as if he was disengaging. (Or could make it 1 free strike even with a used weapon, would need play testing)

This would mean that they would get a good chance of kills, with d8, or duelist, but they often get cut down in response.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby Theblackdog » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:55 am

So here's a basic issue that nonetheless comes off as confusing.
When attacking with a weapon, your Action Roll needs to be Greater than or equal to the weapon's UR. So if you roll equal to the UR, it's a successful roll and a hit.
But your Damage roll needs to be Greater than your target's Armor value- so if you roll equal to the target's Armor, it's a failed roll and no damage.

You could justify this based on the physical nature of whatever-it-is the Action and Damage rolls are supposed to represent - but from a game design perspective, it would probably be best if a roll equal to the target value consistently meant either success or failure.
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