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Artillery rule

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:18 am
by Gorchek
I'm planning on using this rule for my next game, but I'd like to know what other peoples think about it first. I'll post the simplified version first, so it will be easier to understand. Once everyone had a chance to digest it (and if it's not declared "compleatly broken"), I'll post the advance version.

This is meant only for size 3 or greater ranged weapon.

1.Choose a target. You can check the range to the target, but can also
        choose a target that is out of range. If you already have a target,
        you can decide to change it now. If your gunner has more then one
        weapon it can use, choose your weapon as well.

2.Make a skill roll for the gunner. Add this roll to any previous roll made
        since you chose your current target (and weapon) to get your total
        skill roll.
        (ie: if you targeted the big tank last round, you would add this
        round's skill roll to the one made last round.)

3.If the total skill roll is equal or greater then the weapon's use rating,
        you can fire the weapon! Until you change target, the weapon is
        considered use 3. If the target is out of range at this time, you can
        continue to target it and hope it gets closer (the artillery rule doesn't
        increase a weapon's range).

So, what do you think?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:33 pm
by pesgores
??? If the gunner has ore than one size 3 weapon? Keep trying?

I think i got the general idea, but i think it needs to be tested first. Since i have no big guns, i can't test it  :?

But it is very confusing, anyways. If the target is out of range of the weapon, how can you shoot him? It isn't logical. Or did i miss something?

Simplified, please (yes, even more, and test it).

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:12 pm
by IVhorseman
i am completely lost. how does the number of rounds ago an object was shot at have any correlation with how easy it is to target? what do we end up with as a use rating, anyways?

the way that I'D tell you to do it, is just put Howitzer, Artillery, or just Indirect Fire as another weapon type for vehicles (and minifigs, but technically that's a mortar).  a UR of 4x (where x is equal to size), damage of 1d10x explosive, and a range of 8x" (although for a minifig's mortar, 16 - 18 might be more appropriate. it could just be another weapon altogether). It would behave exactly as any other weapon except for one difference: the shot spends one full turn in the air. basically, you shoot, a turn passes, then it lands. it also takes a turn to reload.

at first, "balance" may suggest you put a marker as to where it's supposed to land, and then afterwards determine where it ACTUALLY lands (at UR of 12, artillery shots are NOT going to land where you ask them to, but they'll pummel the general area with shells), but two problems arise from this: a) the enemy shouldn't know where a shot's going to land before it does, and b) it takes time to build a marker. i know you're going to say that landing a shot on a subsequent turn is unfair, but as long as it's within range of the gun, i don't see any reason why a shot should be even MORE inclined to hit a different spot than at a turn before, ESPECIALLY since your opponent is spending that in-air turn un-clumping his troops as best as possible.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:27 pm
by Gorchek
I hope this exemple will clear things up.

The Exo-Force is fighting against their robotic opponent... Again.

We'll focus on the Shadow Crawler, manned by a Devastator Hero.

1.The robot player looks at the field, and decides to target the Uplink (he doesn't bother to check the distance yet, the objectives for the game makes it likely that the Uplink will get within range eventualy). The Shadow Crawler has three weapons: a disk launcher (size 2), a double machine gun (size 3), and a double laser canon (size 4). The robot player decides to use the double laser.

2.The player makes a skill roll for his pilot: 3. Since this is the first round he is targeting the Uplink, he has nothing to add to the roll. He leaves the dice close to the Crawler to note his total skill roll.

3.His roll of 3 is less then the use rating of his lasers (12), so the Crawler's turn is over.

1.Since there is still no target more attractive then the Uplink (the human player used a lot of mini walker and foot soldiers), he keeps it as his target, and with the same weapon.

2.Second skill roll: 8. Added to his previous skill roll, that gives him a total skill roll of 11.

3.His total roll is still less then 12, so he still can't fire.

1.He's almost ready to shoot, no reason to change target now!

2.Third skill roll: 6. His total skill roll now reaches 17.

3.His 17 beats the use 12 of his weapon, and he's locked on his target! He verifies the range to the Uplink... 28". Too far to shoot, so the robot player has to wait again.

1.The human player moved his Uplink closer. The robot player is not going to change his target.

2.His total skill roll is already higher then the weapon's use rating, so there's no need to make a new skill roll here.

3.The robot player verifies the range again, and finds the Uplink to be 23" away! He makes his attack roll, replacing the normal weapon use rating with a 3. He rolls a 7, hitting the Uplink!

If the Uplink survives the attack on the 4th round, the robot player will be able to keep shooting him with his laser (at least, as long as the Uplink stay in range).

Note that I didn't count any of the normal shooting modifiers. I left those for the advanced version.
I hope this has cleared up some of the confusion.
The goal of this rule is to make big weapon easier (if slower) to use. Because, as it is, an immobile size 5 cannon, targeting a size 10 building, will only hit once out of five shots if fired by a hero, and has no hope of improving his aim.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:56 pm
by IVhorseman
wow, no offense, but this is INCREDIBLY broken. let me explain:

i'm assuming the double laser is a size 3 ranged explosive weapon, or it is a size 4 ranged vehicle weapon. this goes to either 3d10 explosive OR 4d6 regular, respectively. since this is an artillery weapon, i'm going to assume that you're going the explosive route (non-splash damage weapons don't make sense to use as artillery).

yes, it takes four turns to fire in this example. but he's also landing a 3d10 explosive with pinpoint accuraccy. this is well and fine if he's attempting to target a large target, but what you've effectively done is cause a 2/3 chance of landing an explosion with a 6" radius (that's TWELVE INCH DIAMETER), DIRECTLY onto a minifig-sized object. consistently. that's just too much, my friend.

large weapons, in brikwars and in real life, are meant to hit large targets. the UR may be high, but that's to compensate that bigger objects are easier to target. not only this, but larger explosives have larger radiuses. radii. whatever. regardless of spelling, they're designed to land somewhere, and you pray that the massive explosion was big enough to hit SOMETHING of value.

however, i DO sympathize with you wanting to bump up the "prolonged targeting" method already in brikwars. currently, minifigs get +1 to skill for every turn they spend aiming. that seems a bit wimpy for larger weapons. personally, i think they should get +(weapon size) to skill per turn. size 1 weapons that minifigs have get +1, and massive guns get +5 per turn. it's simple and easy to calculate.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:46 pm
by Gorchek
Actualy, I did mean a size 4 ranged non-explosive weapon. I wanted to include all ranged vehicule weapons in the rule. Also, artillery includes KE (kinetic energy) weapon like a tank main gun, even if the shell is not explosive.

It's true that pinpoint accuracy is overly strong for ranged explosive. In fact, big explosive device can get ridiculously powerfull in brikwars when you think about it.

I have to admit that I didn't know about the "prolonged targeting" method. When I read the 2005 rules, the bonus was just a +1 for standing still. I guess it's from the older rules? Either way, with your change, it does solves the problem.

Now to turn to the Foward Observer rules, and the full-auto artillery.
(I'm only half kidding: the crusader XM2001 can, by varying the round's firing angle, have 8 rounds hit the target at the same time.)

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:02 pm
by IVhorseman
Gorchek wrote:Now to turn to the Foward Observer rules, and the full-auto artillery.
(I'm only half kidding: the crusader XM2001 can, by varying the round's firing angle, have 8 rounds hit the target at the same time.)

you mean like a cluster shell? i see no reason why you shouldn't be able to have something like that. i'd probably bump the UR per-shot of the explosive rounds.

as for forward observation, that's what scouts are for. they add skill bonuses if they can relay coordinates to their allies in arms. i'd have to check the stat card to see what the actual bonus is, though.

back to KE weapons though, why would you use a non-explosive weapon for indirect fire? artillery, by definition, is a weapon that just hits in a GENERAL area, and maybe if you're lucky you catch something worthwhile in the explosive radius. if something does not explode, you've effectively cut down the blast radius down to 0".

now, for targeting bigger weapons onto smaller targets and spending time to do so, i have no qualms with. but that's not really... artillery. artillery is a certain type of weapon, not a strategy.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:05 am
by Rayhawk
Mmm... cluster bombs!

Not to swing off-topic here, but I bet you could get a pretty good cluster bomb effect by (first) giving the shot a high Use rating.  And then, instead of using the standard NearMiss rules, just drop the apropriate number of bricks from above the target - from a height of something like 4" times the missedby number.  Wherever they end up after bouncing and scattering, that's where explosions happen, and if any figures get knocked over in the drop, so be it.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:20 pm
by IVhorseman
huh. probably the best idea for cluster bombs, and i'd almost go far enough to say for regular artillery as well. missed shots have a bad habit of landing in the most boring of places when the near miss rules are used, but THIS completely randomizes things!

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:47 pm
by Gorchek
At this point, it's pretty much just a question of definition, so I'll leave that part of the topic to wikipedia

And no, unless I'm missing your meaning, the crusader was not firing cluster shells (as in, a single shell that splits in the air), but really 8 shells, fired independently.
But with Rayhawk's rule, I'm gonna have to include some cluster shells in one of my games.

On another almost off-topic subject, I though of another heavy weapon that should be efficient against individuals. Heavy machine guns.
Suppose you take a size 3 gattling gun, and just try to get a few rounds in the mini in front of your construction. Since most of the gattling's damage comes from the numbers of rounds that hits the target, how would you represent the random spraying on a few small targets?

I though, perhaps, of giving the option to drop the damage (and maybe also the range) of constructions to drop the use rating as well.
(ie: dropping the size 3 weapon to a size 1, doing just 1d6 of damage but at use 3, to increase the chances to hit a small target at the cost of damage).

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:53 pm
by IVhorseman
if 8 shells hit simultaneously, it's treated basically the same way, no?

as for super-heavy machineguns, i'm working on rules for those as we speak. all i have left is to make finalized adjustments, but i want to see where the automatic fire rules go before i do that.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:27 pm
by Rayhawk
I'm waiting to see how all the votes on all the polls turn out, so that I can finally go ahead and ignore them and go with the rules I was going to use in the first place.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:41 am
by Tzan
Awesome! that will sure save me a lot of reading/comprehending/rereading/voting.