BW 2010 feedback

Rules questions, suggestions, and discussion

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stubby
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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by stubby » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:48 pm

New updates today. I've added Cannons to the Heavy Explosives section in 8.4, to fill that missing gap between Guns and Launchers where tank turrets and pirate ship cannons never fit perfectly in either category. Cannons are slow weapons that fire every other turn, but have a mostly-infinite supply of whatever Explosive Ammunition you provide for them.

Supporting the new Cannons is the big new Custom Weapons section in 8.7, which will let you give your Ammunition all kinds of funny effects, along with alternate effects and weapon mods for all the other weapons as well. The Weapon Mods system is basically unchanged from the Ker-Modify! system we were discussing back in August: Post 330672

With the new addition of 8.7, chapter eight is getting even more overloaded than it already was after 8.5, so I'm still looking for the best ways to break those sections out into separate chapters along with advanced equipment options for minifigs.

Other notes: a good handful of new photos for chapter eight, and I took Stealth away from Scouts as being more special-purpose complexity than a relatively common unit needed. The Stealth rules have been moved over to the Covert Units section of Chapter 11, so you can still put them back on your custom Scouts if you really want.
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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by TheAtomikpunk » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:35 pm

stubby wrote: I've added Cannons
Brilliant! I am almost done with my space pirate ship, these rulez have some pretty good timing. :tiger:
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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by bann154 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:44 pm

A quick question. With piercing damage would it affect minfigures inside vehicles? So go through one wall of say a tank go through the crew compartment possibly killing the crew?
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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by stubby » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:01 pm

bann154 wrote:A quick question. With piercing damage would it affect minfigures inside vehicles? So go through one wall of say a tank go through the crew compartment possibly killing the crew?
Yes. That's one of the main ideas behind Armor Piercing - that you could have a round that spends some d6es punching through the outer shell and then triggering an Explosion in the interior. The trick is having the right amount of Armor Piercing - too little won't punch through, too much will punch through the whole thing without triggering the Explosion at all.
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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by bann154 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:04 am

Im just curious why is the downside for inaccurate "Use as if 2 Sizes larger". To me this seems a bit much but just curious to hear the real justification?
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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by TheCraigfulOne » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:38 am

bann154 wrote:"Use as if 2 Sizes larger".
:twss:

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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by stubby » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:37 am

bann154 wrote:Im just curious why is the downside for inaccurate "Use as if 2 Sizes larger". To me this seems a bit much but just curious to hear the real justification?
Setting Use to 1 size larger turned out to be unbalanced, with results like +1 Use for another die of damage. It made modified weapons more effective than basic weapons, which is something I want to avoid. The numbers started lining up again at +2 sizes.
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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by dilanski » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:32 am

I've done a quick damage breakdown of custom weapons for anyone interested in how the ammunition type changes damage output. I was interested in seeing how the average roll and critical chance affect the end damage output.

Image

"AR+1C Weighted 1d10" is the column of interest here. It tells you the average roll when considering the potential bonus damage from a single critical once the dice has been weighted against a d10. I am surprised at how well d6's are doing, and wish I could ditch the armour piercing effect and just deal the d6's as damage. Phasic looks pretty bad at larger sizes, it would only need to go up against a small amount of shielding for it to make up for its lower damage, but exactly how often you are going to find targets with heavy shielding is another matter. Overall I was actually expecting a much greater variance in damage, however the math means that the smaller dice, the much greater the difference. If d4's got criticals, the damage for them would be insane, at about 8.44(!) damage weighted against the d10.

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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by stubby » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:54 am

What's the math behind AR+1C Weighted 1d10? I can follow you up to that point, but once you hit that column I can't tell where your numbers are coming from.

As a side note, the average roll on a d6 is 4.2 when recursive Bonus Dice are taken into account. Average rolls for all dice are listed in MC.2: http://brikwars.com/rules/2010/mc.htm#2
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avg(dx) = ½(1+x) + (1/x)(avg(dx))

--> avg(dx) = (x+x²)/(2x-2) = (½x)(x+1)/(x-1)

--> avg(d6) = 4.2

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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by stubby » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:26 am

Wait, I get it now. "Weighted against d10" means a perfect conversion between dice, so you're rolling two and a half d4s for a d10, which isn't really allowed in the normal rules. But if you're house-ruling in perfect dice-to-dice conversions, then including recursive bonus rolls, your numbers will look like this:
  • AR+1C Weighted 1d10
    :d4: 8.33 (d4s roll bonus d4s)
    :d6: 7
    :d8: 6.28
    :d10: 5.92
    :d12: 5.71
Now the d4s look like the clear winner. But the numbers start to tighten up again when you incorporate Overskill:
  • Standard minifig
    :d4: 8.88 (fire)
    :d6: 7.7 (AP)
    :d8: 7.12 (-distance)
    :d10: 6.91 (+2" radius on 1/6th of rolls)
    :d12: 6.852 (phasing)
  • Hero
    :d4: 9.995 (fire)
    :d6: 9.1 (AP)
    :d8: 8.79 (-distance)
    :d10: 8.88 (+2" radius on 1/2 of rolls)
    :d12: 9.135 (phasing)
That Overskill radius boost makes d10s look strong again in this lineup, especially for higher-skill units.

But I don't recommend allowing perfect dice conversion, because a lot of systems start to break when you can increase beyond the original number of damage dice. Trading from multiple small dice to a single large die is fine, but not the other way around.

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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by dilanski » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:52 am

stubby wrote:Wait, I get it now. "Weighted against d10" means a perfect conversion between dice, so you're rolling two and a half d4s for a d10, which isn't really allowed in the normal rules. But if you're house-ruling in perfect dice-to-dice conversions, then including recursive bonus rolls, your numbers will look like this:
  • AR+1C Weighted 1d10
    :d4: 8.33 (d4s roll bonus d4s)
    :d6: 7
    :d8: 6.28
    :d10: 5.92
    :d12: 5.71
Now the d4s look like the clear winner. But the numbers start to tighten up again when you incorporate Overskill:
  • Standard minifig
    :d4: 8.88 (fire)
    :d6: 7.7 (AP)
    :d8: 7.12 (-distance)
    :d10: 6.91 (+2" radius on 1/6th of rolls)
    :d12: 6.852 (phasing)
  • Hero
    :d4: 9.995 (fire)
    :d6: 9.1 (AP)
    :d8: 8.79 (-distance)
    :d10: 8.88 (+2" radius on 1/2 of rolls)
    :d12: 9.135 (phasing)
That Overskill radius boost makes d10s look strong again in this lineup, especially for higher-skill units.

But I don't recommend allowing perfect dice conversion, because a lot of systems start to break when you can increase beyond the original number of damage dice. Trading from multiple small dice to a single large die is fine, but not the other way around.
I was under the impression that 6d10 could become 10d6 or 15d4, as trading in an explosive that does 1d10 for a firebomb that does 1d4 seemed a little underwhelming.

Also seems there have been a bunch of rule changes I have missed as overskill sounds completely different from what I remember it as. Also last I remember d4's never got bonus dice. I probably need to go back and figure out what has changed before actually trying to make stats for stuff. (I haven't been missing a changelog somewhere have I?)

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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by stubby » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:21 pm

dilanski wrote:I was under the impression that 6d10 could become 10d6 or 15d4, as trading in an explosive that does 1d10 for a firebomb that does 1d4 seemed a little underwhelming.
It's a 1d4 firebomb with 2" radius, so less damage but more fire-starting potential.

Alternate Damage isn't supposed to be strictly equivalent - you're trading off numerical Damage for special-purpose Damage effects.
dilanski wrote:Also seems there have been a bunch of rule changes I have missed as overskill sounds completely different from what I remember it as. Also last I remember d4's never got bonus dice. I probably need to go back and figure out what has changed before actually trying to make stats for stuff. (I haven't been missing a changelog somewhere have I?)
This thread is the changelog. Only 97 pages, so it's still shorter than BW2001.

Overskill now grants a Benny on any Skill Roll of a natural 6 or higher. When used to increase Damage, it adds one extra die of any die type already in the attack's Damage rating, along with associated Damage effects (in particular the extra +2" for d10s), rather than the usual Bonus d6.

http://brikwars.com/rules/2010/4.htm#2
http://brikwars.com/rules/2010/10.htm#1

D4s now get special Bonus d4s, because they didn't seem chaotic enough before but I still didn't want to give them any d6 potential.

http://brikwars.com/rules/2010/mc.htm#2

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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by Tzan » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:20 pm

I'd like to convert a 1d8 to 4d2s with bonus d2s on a roll of 2, this seems reasonable ... to some people.

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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by RedRover » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:52 pm

Is a d2 just a poker chip or something?

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Re: BW 2010 feedback

Post by Tzan » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:17 pm

RedRover wrote:Is a d2 just a poker chip or something?
You could do it with dice, even / odd.

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