Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby stubby » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:21 am

IVhorseman wrote:Targeting computers are best treated as Gunners that are built into your ship.

Just remember that they really do have to be built into your ship, you can't just say they're in there somewhere. Anything that counts as a Mind has to be represented by a physical brick so that enemies know where to plant the explosives.
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby pkbrennan » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:36 am

stubby wrote:
IVhorseman wrote:Targeting computers are best treated as Gunners that are built into your ship.

Just remember that they really do have to be built into your ship, you can't just say they're in there somewhere. Anything that counts as a Mind has to be represented by a physical brick so that enemies know where to plant the explosives.


Finally, a use for those damn shiny R2 unit domes... :studgod:
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby Kirillyos » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:42 pm

Couldn't we just make a gunslinger/pistolero minifig (that can fire two short-range weapons at two separate targets in a single turn) by giving the fig Multitasking ability?

2010 Rulebook wrote:As with minifigs, a Creature with a standard Mind has one Action per turn and can attack with one ranged weapon or two melee weapons. If that's not enough for the species you have in mind, you can purchase additional levels of capacity for the cost of the Creature's original Mind, including Skill Boosts.


So for a regular ol' minifig, whose mind costs 1 CP, Multitasking would only be 1 more lousy CP - not a bad deal considering you get:

2010 Rulebook wrote:Multitasking
Appropriate for Creatures with multiple heads or an advanced multiprocessing brain, Multitasking (or "Extra Action") allows a Creature to focus on one additional target during its turn. A Creature with multiple Ranged or Close Combat attacks may divide them between multiple targets in the same turn. A multi-brained or superintelligent Creature can even take two or more completely dissimilar Actions in the same turn (e.g., playing the piano while laying down sniper fire); however, it may not use the same weapon, hand, or equipment item for more than one Action during the turn. It may not use more than two hands or weapons for Actions unless it has also purchased Multidexterity.
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby IVhorseman » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:49 am

Yes
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby Kirillyos » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:36 pm

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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby Kirillyos » Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:37 pm

Of course as previously mentioned, the fig would also need Overcompensating to fire more than a 1" or Bastard ranged weapon. If Overcompensating can let it fire a single 2" weapon, there's no reason that shouldn't just as easily translate into two 1" weapons.

So with both Overcompensating and Multitasking, that's still only a +2 CP total to make a dual-pistol (or sawed-off-shotgun or whatever)-wielding Gunslinger.

Or perhaps just a new Specialty that trims down the excess functions of those two into achieving what we want out of this thread:

Gunslinger (+1 CP)
May fire two (2) 1" ranged weapons in a single turn.

Other terms and conditions may apply, see later posts for details.


What do you think, forum -should there be a movement penalty? Or forcing them to take the dual attacks as a full-round action?

Unlike the Heavy archetype, Gunslingers in action movies tend to run and jump around a lot.
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby IVhorseman » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:05 pm

Why would you need Overcompensating in the first place? Multitasking gives an extra action, which means 2 pistols works just fine.

Also, Overcompensating alone wouldn't let a minifig fire two 1" weapons, even though 1" + 1" = 2". Overcompensating lets figs use bigger weapons, not two smaller ones. It's still two separate attack rolls, which is HUGELY superior to one attack roll of double damage.
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby Kirillyos » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:30 pm

IVhorseman wrote:Why would you need Overcompensating in the first place? Multitasking gives an extra action, which means 2 pistols works just fine.

Also, Overcompensating alone wouldn't let a minifig fire two 1" weapons, even though 1" + 1" = 2". Overcompensating lets figs use bigger weapons, not two smaller ones. It's still two separate attack rolls, which is HUGELY superior to one attack roll of double damage.


Ohh, okay, I think I see what you're getting at. I must have misread the hand-held weapon rules. So "extra action" from Multitasking is essentially like an additional half-turn then?
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby IVhorseman » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:40 am

half-turn? I think you're still missing the point. Let me break it down:

In any given turn, a minifig (or anything with its own mind, really) may use up to their movement in inches in one turn, and ONE SINGLE ACTION such as making an attack, reloading a weapon, or otherwise interacting with the environment in a prolonged manner. they're not treated as separate phases or sections of a turn, since a minifig can use part of their move, then use their action, then the rest of their move if they so chose. If the action is an attack, they are capped at one ranged attack, or two melee attacks (with different weapons).

Multitasking grants another SINGLE ACTION that a minifig can use in the same turn. They still can't exceed their maximum number of attacks unless the multidexterity ability is also purchased, which adds another ranged attack and two more melee attacks. Come to think of it, I think multidexterity alone is enough to let minifigs dual-wield, but multitasking allows them to focus on two separate targets instead of firing both at the same one. I think multidexterity is all a 4-armed fig needs to attack with 4 swords vs. one target, for example.
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby stubby » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:48 am

IVhorseman wrote:It's still two separate attack rolls, which is HUGELY superior to one attack roll of double damage.

Wait, why is two separate attacks superior to one with double damage?
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby IVhorseman » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:58 am

better chance to hit and still at least do a little damage.

With one big attack, it's either hit and roll all the dice, or miss and roll none.

With two smaller attacks, I still have a good chance of getting half of the damage through, which is often enough to kill.
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby Kirillyos » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:09 am

IVhorseman wrote:half-turn? I think you're still missing the point. Let me break it down:

In any given turn, a minifig (or anything with its own mind, really) may use up to their movement in inches in one turn, and ONE SINGLE ACTION such as making an attack, reloading a weapon, or otherwise interacting with the environment in a prolonged manner. they're not treated as separate phases or sections of a turn, since a minifig can use part of their move, then use their action, then the rest of their move if they so chose. If the action is an attack, they are capped at one ranged attack, or two melee attacks (with different weapons).

Multitasking grants another SINGLE ACTION that a minifig can use in the same turn. They still can't exceed their maximum number of attacks unless the multidexterity ability is also purchased, which adds another ranged attack and two more melee attacks. Come to think of it, I think multidexterity alone is enough to let minifigs dual-wield, but multitasking allows them to focus on two separate targets instead of firing both at the same one. I think multidexterity is all a 4-armed fig needs to attack with 4 swords vs. one target, for example.


So Multitasking and Multidexterity would be needed for a Gunslinger firing 2 ranged weapons at 2 separate targets, right? That's why I proposed trimming it down to a single 1CP Specialty (Gunslinger) that would do just that (fire 2 ranged weapons at 2 separate targets) if that's all you need to fill a particular fig's cliche, rather than all the other options that come with Multitasking and Multidexterity.
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby Kirillyos » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:17 am

stubby wrote:
IVhorseman wrote:It's still two separate attack rolls, which is HUGELY superior to one attack roll of double damage.

Wait, why is two separate attacks superior to one with double damage?


That's a good question. I can see the dual guns being more advantageous in minifig combat, but 2 peashooters vs. a tank isn't going to make a lot difference from 1 peashooter vs. a tank. A shoulder-fired cannon, on the other hand...

In the BrikWars battles I've participated in, I found that when it comes to minifig weapons (especially the smaller ones), it's much easier to hit a fig than it is to kill a fig. On a pistol (with no other modifiers), you have to roll 3+ to hit a fig, but a 5+ to actually kill one. With a rifle, it's 3+ to hit, but a 4+ to kill.

I'm sure someone far mathier than I am can come up with the probability/chance calculations on that...
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby stubby » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:35 am

IVhorseman wrote:better chance to hit and still at least do a little damage.

With one big attack, it's either hit and roll all the dice, or miss and roll none.

With two smaller attacks, I still have a good chance of getting half of the damage through, which is often enough to kill.

Well let's check the odds here. We'll say 2 Size 1 Guns versus 1 Size 2 Gun, standard minifig versus minifig.

Size 1 Gun: 3CP Use:3 Rng:6" Dmg:1d6
Size 2 Gun: 6CP Use:4 Rng:10" Dmg:2d6

Firing two 1" Guns, we miss 1/9 of the time, hit with one gun 4/9 of the time, and hit with both guns 4/9 of the time.
Of the shots that hit once, we have a 1/3 chance to kill a minifig target. Of the shots that hit twice, we have a 5/6 chance.
Total chance of killing a minifig within five inches: 52%.

Firing one 2" Gun, we miss 50% of the time, hit 50% of the time.
Of the shots that hit once, we have a 5/6 chance to kill a minifig target.
Total chance of killing a minifig within ten inches: 42%. Not a huge difference, and double the range.

The lone minifig target within 5" is the most generous scenario. Take a minifig in Heavy Armor, or one standing further away, or a Vehicle with an armor rating in d10s, and you see the dual smaller guns lose effectiveness much more quickly than the single larger gun.
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Re: Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?

Postby Zupponn » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:23 pm

Not to mention shielding.
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