News from Wisconsin

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News from Wisconsin

Postby Zupponn » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:18 pm

Apparently Natalya's and stubby's way of thinking is not popular:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/157166145.html
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby stubby » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:59 pm

It's a hell of a lot cheaper though. The Kochs and all the foreign corporations funding Walker's PACs had to outspend the opposition by 700% in order to keep the guy in office.

I think that's my biggest beef with citizens united, it's not that we sold all the politicians to the rich citizens of our own country, but to foreign governments and conglomerate multinationals.

When a million people are willing to fight their asses off to get you fired, I don't think "popularity" is what you call it even if you manage to avoid the chopping block.
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Blitzen » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:16 pm

Here's a fun game: list the Democratic opponent and all his accomplishments.

Aside from being "not Scott Walker", the opponent very little going for him. It was time for Walker go. The only problem is, you need someone to replace him. You need a candidate to run towards, not just someone to run from.
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Zupponn » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:10 pm

stubby wrote:When a million people are willing to fight their asses off to get you fired, I don't think "popularity" is what you call it even if you manage to avoid the chopping block.

When a million people in a state of over 4 million want to get a guy fired, then to you, it doesn't matter what the other 3 million people have to say? That's my biggest beef with the recall. They didn't need even a quarter of the state's population to start one.

stubby wrote:It's a hell of a lot cheaper though. The Kochs and all the foreign corporations funding Walker's PACs had to outspend the opposition by 700% in order to keep the guy in office.

There were many many studies conducted that said that no matter how much money either side spent, the polling numbers didn't change. The people who voted him into office voted for him again, plain and simple, thus showing that they knew what they were voting for the first time and that there was no need for the recall in the first place.

This whole recall was started by unions afraid of not getting their cut, so I for one am glad that Walker won.

EDIT: He also both balanced the budget for the first time in years and started creating jobs through his reforms, so he's tough for independents to not like.
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Tzan » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:25 pm

Zupponn wrote:This whole recall was started by unions afraid of not getting a living wage, so I for one am glad that Walker fucked the middle class.



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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Zupponn » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:35 pm

Tzan wrote:
Zupponn wrote:This whole recall was started by unions afraid of not getting a living wage, so I for one am glad that Walker fucked the middle class.



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Well, if the union bosses can't get a living wage anymore, then they should start getting real jobs. And why would the middle class be overwhelmingly in support of Walker if he screwed them over?

I'll say this now, unions, for the time being, are obsolete. They are so corrupt that they cannot do anything without trying to make a profit off of it. When Walker got rid of the collective bargaining, then the unions had to lower their insurance prices in order to compete with the real world market. They were directly making a profit off their union members and there was nothing that those members could do about it. Unions were originally formed under good intentions, but these days have become misguided.
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Tzan » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:47 pm

Zupponn wrote:Well, if the union bosses can't get a living wage anymore, then they should start getting real jobs. And why would the middle class be overwhelmingly in support of Walker if he screwed them over?


Its not about bosses, its about workers who would actually like to keep a real job.

Most people in the state are not in unions, so they didnt get directly screwed over.
When wages drop, or don't increase with inflation it drops spending and that effects other businesses.

The re-publican middle class frequently votes against its own self interest, due to ignorance and misinformation delivered as fact.
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Zupponn » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:19 pm

Tzan wrote:Its not about bosses, its about workers who would actually like to keep a real job.

I assumed that. It's just the way you wrote your sentence could have been taken that way, so I thought it was funny. :)

Walker didn't get rid of unions, he just got rid of collective bargaining, also known as forcing people to join a union so the union can make more money. In many cases, getting rid of collective bargaining allows the employers to better the quality of their workers and prevents the workers from overpaying for necessary things, like insurance. After the collective bargaining ban was implemented, the insurance offered by the unions went down in cost. Also, in places like schools, where previously a teacher who had taught for many years and didn't do a very good job was basically unfireable, they can now find it easier to fire a bad veteran teacher and replace them with a good new teacher. Outdated collective bargaining is outdated.

Tzan wrote:The re-publican middle class frequently votes against its own self interest, due to ignorance and misinformation delivered as fact.

Wow. I didn't know I did that. Of course, I would say the same thing about dem-ocrat voters.
Last edited by Zupponn on Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Ross_Varn » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:22 pm

It's the state of the USA's "independent news corporations" today.

"independent news corporations".

I don't see how you can look at those three words and not see a contradiction.
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Blitzen » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Zupponn wrote:When a million people in a state of over 4 million want to get a guy fired, then to you, it doesn't matter what the other 3 million people have to say? That's my biggest beef with the recall. They didn't need even a quarter of the state's population to start one.

They actually didn't need 1 million signatures, but they got a million. I can't find a clear number on voter turnout, but it was between 55% and 65%... among eligible voters. A far cry from 4 million people.

Corporate money does make a difference. In California Proposition 29 would increase the tax on cigarettes by $1, to $1.90. In March it was polling at 67%. It was narrowly defeated, 50.8% to 49.2%. Why the sudden change? The tobacco industry spend $47 million on ads.


On your union hogwash: you're stupid. I don't know how else to put it. You're stupid, and you don't understand how unions work beyond the garbage propaganda you've been fed. Do you think union-busting balanced the budget? You're stupid. It's political strategy. Where giant corporations are the top spenders for Repubs, unions are top spenders for Dems. This is part of the Repub plan for the next election, and that's who it helps. No one else. You're stupid.
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Natalya » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:04 am

Blitzen wrote:Aside from being "not Scott Walker", the opponent very little going for him. It was time for Walker go. The only problem is, you need someone to replace him. You need a candidate to run towards, not just someone to run from.


Yeah I can't believe they didn't figure that out.


Oh and there wasn't some kind of budget problem when he got into office... He created it by passing some tax breaks, then used the deficit he just created as an excuse for his union busting.

Oh and Zuppon, why do you talk about unions trying to make a shit ton of money? Do you even know what a union is?
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Zupponn » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:12 am

Blitzen wrote:
Zupponn wrote:When a million people in a state of over 4 million want to get a guy fired, then to you, it doesn't matter what the other 3 million people have to say? That's my biggest beef with the recall. They didn't need even a quarter of the state's population to start one.

They actually didn't need 1 million signatures, but they got a million. I can't find a clear number on voter turnout, but it was between 55% and 65%... among eligible voters. A far cry from 4 million people.

The voter turnout was about 75-76% according to what I could find. About 2.5 million people voted. I guess it's not 4 million, but what I was trying to say was that they needed only about half a million signatures or so, which seems like a very low number to me. And the signatures part? None of them were even verified because they weren't given enough time. After talking to some people who had started working on the verification process before they cancelled it, I found out that they were throwing out a surprising number of signatures, although I never could get a hard number or estimate from them.

Blitzen wrote:Corporate money does make a difference. In California Proposition 29 would increase the tax on cigarettes by $1, to $1.90. In March it was polling at 67%. It was narrowly defeated, 50.8% to 49.2%. Why the sudden change? The tobacco industry spend $47 million on ads.

Sure, for that might, but for this particular election, it really didn't.


Blitzen wrote:On your union hogwash: you're stupid. I don't know how else to put it. You're stupid, and you don't understand how unions work beyond the garbage propaganda you've been fed. Do you think union-busting balanced the budget? You're stupid. It's political strategy. Where giant corporations are the top spenders for Repubs, unions are top spenders for Dems. This is part of the Repub plan for the next election, and that's who it helps. No one else. You're stupid.

This is normally why I don't like discussions about tough issues. It normally just boils down to one person or the other just flaming. And just to answer you, no, I don't think union-busting balanced the budget, I think that cutting government spending balanced the budget. I do also understand how unions work, and I never said that they were never important or effective at one time, I just feel that they have become too corrupt to be as useful to workers as they could be today. They are more interested in making money than helping workers. In fact, I see very little difference between a union and a big corporation. Even then, do I want to disband unions? No, because I don't feel that it would be a smart idea. I really don't like collective bargaining though. I feel that collective bargaining is similar to a monopoly, which are outlawed in most, if not every, modern country in the world. Why should they have the right to force workers to join a union? If the union was so good, then the worker should be running to join them. If the worker doesn't want to join the union for whatever reason, then they should have the right to say no. I'm really for the rights of the worker on this issue more than anything (could be that libertarianism in me :) ).
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby stubby » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:21 am

Blitzen wrote:On your union hogwash: you're stupid. I don't know how else to put it. You're stupid, and you don't understand how unions work beyond the garbage propaganda you've been fed. Do you think union-busting balanced the budget? You're stupid. It's political strategy. Where giant corporations are the top spenders for Repubs, unions are top spenders for Dems. This is part of the Repub plan for the next election, and that's who it helps. No one else. You're stupid.

Welp, we reached the "you're stupid" stage of modern political debate about as fast as I expected. This is why I always end up deleting these threads.

I don't know if unions still hold that kind f political clout up there in Canada, but down here their backs were broken in the eighties when the Left abandoned the labor movement to focus on civil rights instead. The Kochs' strategy here isn't to kill off a segment of campaign contributions, it's to take money out of the consumer class and depress the Wisconsin economy. Preventing economic recovery by crushing the middle class underheel does a lot more to hurt Obama in November than denying him campaign contributions ever will.
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby Zupponn » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:22 am

Natalya wrote:Oh and there wasn't some kind of budget problem when he got into office... He created it by passing some tax breaks, then used the deficit he just created as an excuse for his union busting.

Really? So how did Wisconsin accumulate its $81 billion dollar debt then?

Natalya wrote:Oh and Zuppon, why do you talk about unions trying to make a shit ton of money? Do you even know what a union is?

Because that's what they do. People complain about the amount of money CEOs get paid, but have you seen the figures for some of those Union leaders? They get paid just as much!

EDIT: Looking back at this page, it just feels like more arguing than discussion, partially on my behalf I'll admit. I'll just leave and go back to putting little plastic toys together and bringing chaos onto the battlefield. :D
Last edited by Zupponn on Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: News from Wisconsin

Postby RunsWithLegos » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:26 am

YAY MORE POLITICAL SHIT :D

aka: we all ready lost one awesome forum member to BS arguing about shit that does not mater [at least here in brikwars] so don't fuck this one up too.
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