Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby Zupponn » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:06 pm

We must also remember the disadvantages that we have for being white too, like the possibility of not getting grant or scholarship money for college because you aren't black or Latino.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby Natalya » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:09 pm

stubby wrote:That's kind of what this boils down to: there's a not-insignificant number of women who are looking back on a life of being treated as objects, forced to take the back seat and wait for men to decide their position in society, their value as human beings, whether their opinions and emotions are valid, whether or not that really counted as "snuggle," etc. They know the role that popular media played in turning them into objects, in making them and everyone around them believe that that was their proper role in life, and in allowing men to grow up never questioning or even noticing the "not hurting anybody" privileges associated with relegating women to that role. And more immediately, they can see the direct effect that each new reinforcement of the desubjectified-woman stereotype has in the lives of their daughters as they go through grade school, as they go through high school, as they hit the professional world.

Now you're finally talking about objectification.

Rayhawk wrote:You talk to women about this, especially mothers, and they see the direct connection between the toys and cartoons that make boys always the heroes, and the kids who grow up learning to treat women as supporting cast. For mothers of girls, it's not some philosophical idea they're debating in the abstract, they don't have to theorize. It's their daily reality. It's what they had to live with growing up, it's what they have to face every day they interact with other people, till the day they die there's never going to be a day where that de-protagonization isn't forced on them on some level.

de-protagonization... nice

Rayhawk wrote:Every one of them has a different set of experiences to draw from, some feel it as more or less of a burden, each sees things in a different light than others, but I haven't found one yet who's read Brag's posts up there and not wanted to take a cue from Scalzi and "beat him to death with a hammer" for being such the poster child for self-satisfied oblivious privilege.

So my opinion is that the Friends line is actually really good, because it puts its girl characters into a lot more empowered roles than a lot of people realize at first glance. A lot of my women friends on the other hand, the moms of daughters in particular, feel like Friends is just one more thing that will feed into their daughters' second-class treatment as women.

I have mixed feelings about the Fiends but I don't think they're bad. Probably like slightly positive, given the circumstances that product line is in. But not all my friends think the same. My GF for example thinks they are sexist.

Rayhawk wrote:I tend to respect the moms' position more highly than my own on this particular subject, because they know what it's like on a much deeper level to deal with constant monotonous unquestioned "not hurting anybody" sexism day in, day out. They're experts.

Be careful here. Experiences of oppression doesn't always lead to an understanding it conceptually.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby Natalya » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:16 pm

Umm I unbanned Brag. He was being an idiot, but I've seen worse on here.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby stubby » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:46 pm

Uh oh, now the pros step in.

Natalya wrote:Now you're finally talking about objectification.

I want to argue with you on this one even though I know you'll probably win. I feel like the first examples are marginalization if he's saying they have opinions but they don't matter, but objectification if he's just assigning them his opinions without considering they might be capable of possessing opinions independent from his manpinions in the first place.

Natalya wrote:
Rayhawk wrote:I tend to respect the moms' position more highly than my own on this particular subject, because they know what it's like on a much deeper level to deal with constant monotonous unquestioned "not hurting anybody" sexism day in, day out. They're experts.

Be careful here. Experiences of oppression doesn't always lead to an understanding it conceptually.

Ah in this case I just meant they're experts on deciding whether or not it "isn't hurting anybody," i.e., whether or not they're actually being oppressed, in comparison to somebody like Brag sitting in his ivory-tower "student's group for more equality and whatnot." But I ran out of steam for mansplaining stuff. (I really didn't figure anyone would still be reading by that point, TBH.)

Natalya wrote:Umm I unbanned Brag. He was being an idiot, but I've seen worse on here.

Aw. His ban was set to run out in a couple of hours anyway. Why can't you share my vision of completely arbitrary punishment? I had this big hamfisted metaphor planned and everything. "That's what it's like when someone else decides your opinions aren't going to be part of the conversation and now imagine living like that except it's every conversation and it's every day for the rest of your life etc etc etc." I was going to link to some after-school special music and everything, probably like the "I'm glad we had this talk" theme from Full House or Brady Bunch, it was going to be so great. SO GREAT.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby stubby » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:24 pm

Natalya wrote:Now you're finally talking about objectification.

Dammit you were right. I knew I should have kept my mouth shut
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby Natalya » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:31 pm

stubby wrote:
Natalya wrote:Umm I unbanned Brag. He was being an idiot, but I've seen worse on here.

Aw. His ban was set to run out in a couple of hours anyway. Why can't you share my vision of completely arbitrary punishment? I had this big hamfisted metaphor planned and everything. "That's what it's like when someone else decides your opinions aren't going to be part of the conversation and now imagine living like that except it's every conversation and it's every day for the rest of your life etc etc etc." I was going to link to some after-school special music and everything, probably like the "I'm glad we had this talk" theme from Full House or Brady Bunch, it was going to be so great. SO GREAT.

That wouldn't accomplish anything useful.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby stubby » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:31 pm

Except being AWESOME

but it really would have depended on finding the right musical clip. So far I'm coming up empty.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby Natalya » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:33 pm

Roll reversal in a tenuous medium such as this internet forum isn't likely to be understood as such.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby OneEye589 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:33 pm

I hope Brag gets all pissy again.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby Bragallot » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:26 am

Not a chance. If I was invested enough in this conversation, at most I would feel pity for the deluded. All this boils down to anyway is you being too stupid and biased to understand the essence of what I'm saying anyway, so I'll use an example. My point is not: minorities don't have anything to complain about, my point is it is a conscious effort by the powers that be to keep us fighting each other over irrelevant bullshit which we are made to think is *truly* important rather than the relevant things that affect us in our daily lives.

In Belgium, people are now being forced to work until they're 62, because rich people fucked up, and a lot of poor people don't even have jobs and would be glad to take those jobs if they could. People no longer make any money on their savings (instead their savings become worth less every day), because the banks fucked up. This affects us all, and while we're being pissy about children's toys or something some comedian said, all our money's flowing away through the big gate. Money isn't everything, you say? No, but differences in income indicate a lack of equality: the marginalized groups are *in most cases* also the poorest, and again, the people who are being hit hardest by the current crisis.

Instead of paying attention to this, the Belgian media keeps stressing the bickering between the dutch-speaking and the french-speaking Belgian politicians (of which 1 party says everythings the fault of the French part of the country, and they're the biggest party in the country). Why do you think this is? Well, if we're fighting each other over every single little thing, we can't unite, and they can keep running off with all the fucking money while doing nothing to for instance change the fact women make less money for no apparent reason, or immigrants are all put together in the same schools, denying them the ability to naturally integrate. This is in fact literally what the NVA (the party I'm talking about) is trying to do: if Belgium were to split they'd be rid of the French-speaking Labor Unions (who still stand strong enough to stop their ploys) and could go through with their elitist-supporting programme. Almost none of their voters know how elitist they are, almost none of them know the savings they are planning, because the NVA controls the media and keeps telling them the lack of money is all the fault of supposed large transfers being made to Walloon, while far more money is lost to tax-evading millionaires each year and transfers are made to poorer Flemish provinces as well, while the richest province of all lies in Walloon. Only, they get away with it because of their fake shroud of political correctness which people actually believe in.

So tell me, do you (attempt to) treat a problem at the surface, or do you strike at the root? Wait, I forgot for a moment there that I'm white and overprivileged, and thus cannot have any possible access to any useful information whatsoever, and to pretend I do would be pretentious. So basically, this means, no one can ever stand up for the minorities, after all to do so would be a crime if you're white. Now that I've come to realize this, I'm going to go over to Peter Mertens (Belgian socialist) who just wrote an influential book on the corruptness of today's politics to slug him in the mouth. He should shut his mouth, the bastard, for pointing out the crisis in Greece is rich people's fault because they were always free of taxes and moved all their money to Swiss banks. He can't do that, because he's white, you see, and the poor Greeks are no doubt far better informed and able to voice this.*

* Extra points for the first person who doesn't see the sarcasm (just so he / she can have another go at me).

But this is all very easily solved. If you do not like the workings of something, you should stop supporting it. I do not support the current democracy my country has because it is *not* a true democracy, at all. I do not buy the newspaper and I do not watch the news because it's only there to poison your mind. I do not have to support something that wants to make me into a mindless sheep, and neither do I have to support a forum that is biased towards me because I'm white.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby stubby » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:23 am

Bragallot wrote:Not a chance. If I was invested enough in this conversation, [...]

[followed by 700 more paragraphs of wall of text lol]


Bragallot wrote:All this boils down to anyway is you being too stupid and biased to understand the essence of what I'm saying anyway,

When one guy doesn't understand what you're saying, there's a possibility that it's because he's stupid, though it's less than you probably think it is. When no one can figure out what you're saying... it's time to look for an alternate explanation.

Bragallot wrote:In Belgium, people are now being forced to work until they're 62 [...]

[followed by... wtf? Belgian politics???]

Wtf? Belgian politics??? Is this the Belgian version of "two camels in a tiny car?" "Yes, some women may feel marginalized by LEGO's appearance of pandering to oppressive gender norms, but on the other hand... BELGIAN POLITICS"

I guess maybe I really am too stupid to understand the essence of what you're trying to say, because I feel like I just warped into a completely unrelated thread. For Belgians.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby mgb519 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:45 am

Americans retire too early, anyway.
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That's what Hitler said,
in 1938.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby OneEye589 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:37 am

Who asked you about your Belgian politics? Do you have some Belgian political problem you need to talk about? :roll:
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby Bragallot » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:04 am

Why would I give an example about how politicians and the media consciously make us care about imaginary problems and constantly point out our differences so we forget about raising our voice as one against actual problems like being extortionated and exploited by rich companies, banks and a wasteful government, I wonder... You can't seriously be this stupid. I've seen this obnoxious attitude before. I'm not inclined to post any longer.
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Re: Lego Friends, err, FIENDS

Postby OneEye589 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:24 am

Did you seriously call Stubby obnoxious? Only because he doesn't agree with you?
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