Short ranges on guns?

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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Kirillyos » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:26 pm

halo 3000 wrote:
Apollyon wrote:I always wonder if people want realism so much... why don't they just join the army?


I'm not sure why you think I'm lobbying for realism here. I'm just wanting a few extra inches on the ranges. Join the army? That doesn't even make sense. Hypothetically, just because I want my car to go faster, doesn't mean I want to be a race car driver.


Games are - at their core - about fun. Play is how humans and many other species learn.

I was in the military, and I can tell you that real war is not fun.

Obviously, I realize that many of us are drawn to Wargames/RPGs due to fascination with strategic/tactical maneuvering, an appreciation of military aesthetic, or simply enjoying the feeling of blowing imaginary shit up without the cops knocking on our doors.

However, from a game designer's perspective, there's only so much granularity or fine 1:1 detail you can jam in a system before all fun is crushed under the weight of the massive tower of rules.

Now the 10" range on a minifig long-range weapon (e.g. rifle) would convert to appx. 11.06 meters in minifig scale (assuming minifigs are appx. 6 feet tall in their world).

So let's take, for example, the AK-47, one of the most widely used small arms in the history of the world, which has its effective range listed by Wikipedia at 400 meters.

Using the same LEGO scale converter, 400 meters in minifig scale would equal to over 361 inches on a real-life human scale. I doubt many of us even have Brikwar battles taking place with the minifigs 9.19 real-life meters apart or that we even have many rooms in our homes that big.
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Quantumsurfer » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:21 am

Kirillyos wrote:Games are - at their core - about fun. Play is how humans and many other species learn.


Yep. And different folks have fun in different ways. The only thing that matters is that we have fun with the people we play with and they have fun when they play with us. :warhead:
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby aoffan23 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:28 pm

halo 3000 wrote:On the other hand,if two players are both playing Sci Fi army's with no Melee units at all...


This is completely irrelevant. As long as the two sides are equally matched in ranged weaponry, why does it matter how far apart they are? If you jack up the range of everything, you haven't changed the ratio between the two sides' range, meaning it's going to play the exact same as before. Formations will be the exact same, just spread over a larger distance, and firefights will just be farther away. Terrain would be scaled differently, but it would all still be modelled around who can shoot farther (e.g. a sniper tower would be taller, but the same units that could/couldn't hit the sniper could/couldn't hit them now).

Making everything longer ranged would just result in needing a bigger table.
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby IVhorseman » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:16 pm

You'd want longer movement ratings too, unless you want everyone to just hole up in the "best place" and just roll dice at each other until someone wins.
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Kirillyos » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:07 pm

IVhorseman wrote:just roll dice at each other until someone wins.


Yahtzee!
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Kirillyos » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:27 pm

Besides, if you find yourself an inch or two short of your target, you can always make out-of-range shots is you're willing to accept the penalty.

2010 rulebook wrote:Out of Range: -1 to Skill, -1 to Damage per extra 1"
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby motorhead fan » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:58 pm

i don't know if this has anything to do with this but:

with some guns i give more than one attack(assault rifles for example)

do you lot do thistoo?
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Kirillyos » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:39 pm

motorhead fan wrote:i don't know if this has anything to do with this but:

with some guns i give more than one attack(assault rifles for example)

do you lot do thistoo?


Yeah, just buy machine pistols/SMGs/Assault Rifles/Machine guns as Autofire guns and use the burst-fire option.
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby IVhorseman » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:37 am

multiple attacks on a weapon is the simplest (read: best) way to do automatic weapons, but it's definitely not balanced.
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Kirillyos » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:32 am

IVhorseman wrote:multiple attacks on a weapon is the simplest (read: best) way to do automatic weapons, but it's definitely not balanced.


Personally, I thought the way it ended up being handled in the rulebook was pretty balanced.

2010 Rulebook wrote:MachineGuns and Reloading
MachineGun: Cost:WSx4CP Use:WS+2+Auto Range:(WSx3)+2" Damage:WSd6 Notes: -1 Auto Penalty per Arc or Burst, may require Reload

MachineGuns are the most versatile of Automatic Weapons, allowing for Arc Fire, single-shot attacks, or multi-shot Bursts, depending on the needs of the situation. Unfortunately, while Automatic Fire is good for increasing a MachineGun's damage output, it also has a tendency to burn through its ammunition (or to jam, overheat, or lock up in some other way, if ammo isn't an issue).

The more Automatic Fire a MachineGun uses, the higher the chances of hitting one of these mechanical limits and becoming Inoperative. An Inoperative weapon can be indicated by pointing the barrel skyward when possible, or attaching a small brick as a temporary reminder. The weapon can can still be moved around as normal and used as makeshift club, but it can no longer be fired until it's Reloaded.

Fortunately, Reloading is easy - regardless of the Weapon's Size, any minifig operating the weapon (whether directly or from a pilot or gunner's seat) can Reload it with a single Action, making it ready to use again on the following turn. Unlike Launchers, MachineGuns never suffer from a lack of spare ammunition; additional Reloads are always mysteriously available, and Minifigs know better than to ask questions about where they come from. A MachineGun can't be Reloaded and fired on the same turn, even by multiple minifigs using their Actions together.

Arc Fire and Reloading
When a MachineGun is fired in Arc Fire, the player chooses the size of the Arc he's going to attempt (which determines the overall Auto Penalty), and, starting from one end and moving to the other, rolls a separate Attack Roll for each target in order. However, after each roll, if the number on the Skill die (before applying bonuses or penalties) is smaller than the current number of Arcs that the MachineGun has swept through, then the weapon has hit its limit. It stops firing immediately and becomes Inoperative. For instance, a MachineGun firing across three units of Arc would have no problems when firing at targets in the first unit, but would hit its limit if the player rolled a "1" for any of the targets in the second unit of Arc, or a "1" or a "2" when firing at any of the targets in the third unit of Arc.

Burst Fire and Reloading
Unlike other Automatic Weapons, a MachineGun can also be used in Burst Fire, firing multiple shots at a single target. The player chooses the number of shots he's going to attempt in a Controlled Burst (which determines the overall Auto Penalty; he receives a cumulative -1 for each shot in the Burst he plans to attempt), and rolls a separate Attack Roll for each shot. For each roll, if the number on the Skill Die (before applying bonuses or penalties) is less than the current shot number , then the MachineGun hits its limit and becomes Inoperative. A MachineGun will never become Inoperative on the first shot in a Burst, but it will if the player rolls a "1" on the second shot, or a "1" or a "2" on the third shot, and so forth.


I mean the versatility of MORE DAKKKA!!!! does come at the price of Arc penalties and having the thing jam/overheat/need a reload every so often, but that comes with the territory if you squeeze gats till your clips is are empty.

After all - the rules were complied from BrikWars community ideas, feedback, and battlefield reports, right? You'all must have had a good reason for making them the way they are.
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby IVhorseman » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:59 am

Well of course, just not everyone has the attention span for that. I love the autofire rules, but when I explain them to new people, it usually takes a couple examples and they still have a hard time.
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Kirillyos » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:37 pm

IVhorseman wrote:it usually takes a couple examples and they still have a hard time.


Have your minifigs shoot theirs with machine guns until they figure it out?
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Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Nimja » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:52 am

halo 3000 wrote:One thing that gets me about Brikwars is the overall short ranges on ranged weapons. Now this may have stemmed from playing too much 40k but I have to wonder why the relatively low ranges?

Here is some of my reasoning.

1. My buddy is a Marine and during boot he told all the guys there could accurately hit a man sized target at 300 yards standing up. I'm not saying boost the range of standard rifles to 60 In, but I just think 10 is a little too low.

2. Snipers can usually hit targets up to 1000 yards away. again, 18 in seems too low.

3. A Tanks main cannon can fire a shell that can travel miles.

I know I probably am starting to repeat myself a bit, but these are just my observations. If I had to guess, I would say the low ranges would be there to promote hand to hand combat, but usually in my games there is none.

I am also aware that when I'm playing with my buddies I can make the ranges whatever I want. Again these are just my observations.

What do you guys think?

Well, some people compare Brikwars to Warhammer, which also suffers this sort of scale problem. GW says that the ranges "Dopple out".( basically, the further you go ,the scale starts to change.). :ftfy:
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