BW 2018 Feedback

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Maraxous
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by Maraxous » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:00 am

At one time we had Assassin class, didn't we? Are they coming back? Also the SN d12 I like the added ability to ghost through stuff, but how much deflection does it go through?

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stubby
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by stubby » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:29 am

I took Stealth away. (Or did I? Maybe it's hiding.) So for now, the Thief, Infiltrator, Saboteur, and Assassin aren't part of the main rules.

The Stealth system was involved enough that it was stealing momentum from the rules presentation and the game overall. I'll probably bring it all back later in a supplement specifically focused on stealth-based gameplay; it was a nice little system, but it detracted from the focus I'm trying to go for in the new rules.

D12s aren't affected by any amount of Deflection. If you have three levels of Deflection and you're hit with 1d12+2d10+7d6+3d4 damage, the 1d12 will get through automatically, and all the other dice will be canceled except for 4d6.
Natalya wrote:Wtf is going on in this thread?

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Eleazar
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by Eleazar » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:46 am

New guy here. I have a question. What specific changes were made to grabbing? I never used grabbing when I was using the 2010 rules because it didn't make sense to me. There was no reason not to grab in every single close combat encounter, and this made CC more cumbersome overall. This sentence seemed strange:
"The Grabbing minifig may release the Grab at any time, including right after making his own Attack but right before the Grabbed minifig's Counterattack."
So basically this earlier part isn't true?
"Naturally, the Grabbed minifig can immediately Counterattack with an Automatic Hit, making Grabs risky against an armed opponent."
If you grab, attack, then let go, you have absolutely no risk of being hit automatically. The only danger might be that your enemy can grab you. The 2018 rules seem to keep this issue, albeit in a different form now that counterattacks are reserved for heroes and withdrawing.
"Naturally, the Grabbed minifig will be able to Strike with an Automatic Hit on his own turn, making Grabs risky against armed opponents. ... The Grabbing minifig may release the Grab at any time, including right after making his own Strike on a subsquent turn."
So does the new terminology "subsequent turn" mean that the grabbing minifig must wait for the next turn before attacking a second time and then releasing? This would give the grabbed minifig one automatic hit, therefore giving the grabbing minifig a potential cost for grabbing. I like this better, honestly. But the problem is that it still says the grabbing minifig can release "at any time." This implies that he may grab, attack, let go, and end his turn. This means there is no real cost at all for grabbing and there is never any reason to have to break free from it (unless the grabber really wants to prevent you from running away). You should do it in any and all close combat fights as there is never a downside as long as you let go immediately. I'm guessing I'm just not interpreting it correctly.

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stubby
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by stubby » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:22 pm

In 2010, a single turn of Close Combat was Active Maneuver -> Opponents Counter -> Opponents Counterattack -> Active Maneuver -> Opponents Counter -> Opponents Counterattack until the active unit ran out of maneuvers. So in 2010 you might see
  • Your turn:
    You: Grab
    Opponent: Counterattack (Automatic Hit)
    You: Attack (Automatic Hit) (release Grab)
    Opponent: Counterattack
All in a single round of combat.

In 2018, you only get to do one kind of thing in a single turn of Close Combat, so it's cut down to Active Maneuver -> Opponent Parry for most maneuvers, although a Strike can happen twice and a Disengage draws a Counterattack rather than a Parry. So in 2018 you might see
  • Your turn:
    You: Grab
    Opponent: (declines to Parry Grab)


    Enemy turn:
    Opponent: Strike (Automatic Hit)
    You: Parry
    Opponent: 2nd Strike (Automatic Hit)
    You: Parry


    Your turn:
    You: Strike (Automatic Hit)
    Opponent: Parry
    You: (release Grab)
Natalya wrote:Wtf is going on in this thread?

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Eleazar
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by Eleazar » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:54 pm

stubby wrote:In 2010, a single turn of Close Combat was Active Maneuver -> Opponents Counter -> Opponents Counterattack -> Active Maneuver -> Opponents Counter -> Opponents Counterattack until the active unit ran out of maneuvers. So in 2010 you might see
  • Your turn:
    You: Grab
    Opponent: Counterattack (Automatic Hit)
    You: Attack (Automatic Hit) (release Grab)
    Opponent: Counterattack
All in a single round of combat.

In 2018, you only get to do one kind of thing in a single turn of Close Combat, so it's cut down to Active Maneuver -> Opponent Parry for most maneuvers, although a Strike can happen twice and a Disengage draws a Counterattack rather than a Parry. So in 2018 you might see
  • Your turn:
    You: Grab
    Opponent: (declines to Parry Grab)


    Enemy turn:
    Opponent: Strike (Automatic Hit)
    You: Parry
    Opponent: 2nd Strike (Automatic Hit)
    You: Parry


    Your turn:
    You: Strike (Automatic Hit)
    Opponent: Parry
    You: (release Grab)
Makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the explanation!

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by domminniti » Sat May 04, 2019 11:48 am

The grabbing and shoving rules seem to cause a lot of confusion, and get in the way of the 2018 streamlined rules. Can we think of a way of generalizing all attacks and making grab and shove special effects of certain weapons?

The currebt rules as is are good, and possibly offer decent tactical variety, but there not intuitive to me. Especially all the stipulations about max and minimum unit sizes and bonuses due to size difference.

I really like how general and intuitive some of the the rules are in brikwars 2018 and I'd like shoving and grabbing similarly generalised.

I've thought of several ways of doing this. Here's what I think might work, but will need a lot of refining.

Shoving and grabbing are now special damage types. We already have one for shoving, called concussion. We'll add another called grabbing for want of a better term. Both are contested by pop.

Only weapons with flat bits can be shoving weapons. Sort of opposite to charging weapons. Perhaps some could be optional shoving weapons where you can decide to do damage or concussion, like a hammer or baseball bat, or perhaps the weapons have fixed components when chosen (3" cc with 2 damage die and 1 concussion). A stick with a boxing gloves on the end is all concussion and a warhammer might have d6 damage d6 concussion. Sheilds would act as 1 inch and bastsrd concussion weapons dealing d6 and d6+2 concussion. Blastguns should probably stay as is with flat knockback inches, as they're fiddly enough.

Claws, mouths, grappling hooks can be partially damage and grabbing dice, nets, tractor beams and bolas will be usually just grabbing.

Hands are size 1/2 weapons with use 0 and optional shoving or grabbing. But you need 1 power to get enough to contest a shove or grab hence why you need two hands.

A horses kick could be changed to a size 2 CC weapon with d6 damage and d6 knockback. Its bite is a 1" CC weapon with d6 damage or d6 grabbing. This would make them fairer as right now bites and animal kicks are pretty overpowered.

When doing an attack with a shoving weapon, you roll to hit against the use of the limb or weapon you are shoving with as normal, with usual bonuses for size. If hit, depending on the weapon, a number of die are applied as the concussion dice, which are opposed by the targets POP. If resisted then no effect, otherwise the remainder is applied as thrust. Any additional knockback from weapons being bigger than target is added to any concussion thrust.(id prefer to get rid of this large weapon size rule and merge it into these rules but I can't think how. It will still be required for non concussion weapons).

Grabs are similar. Any grabbing dice are contested by pop dice. The pop needs to overcome, not equal, to break free. This needs to happen for the grab to be released. This also allows for remote grabs by net launchers. If grabbed by the net, the target is immobilized and is easier to hit.

Nets and the like could also allow grabbing multiple units at once, by treating them as special payloads with a area of effect and grabbing dice.

Grabs can be combined, but only against a single target. Shoves can be combined by several units against several units.


Disadvantages
More dice rolls, but shoves are rare.
Still don't like remebering to add 1 inch knockback per inch the weapon is bigger than target. I usually forget particularly with ranged attacks
I think small shields should be a little more effective at shoving than they would be with this. Unless it's a combined shove they'd fail over half the time. Maybe they can gave a +2 for both shield sizes.
I haven't consididers partial grabs, where the target is not immobilized. Currently a minifig can grab a monster for auto Hits without hampering it due to relative sizes. Perhaps this is just the stuff of heroes?


Advantages
Chargeing shove now is intuitive as just adds concussion dice to mom in charging attack
Can remove parrying for no shields and heros as shoves and grabs are contested by pop, not parries.
Remove a lot of the rules about size limitations for shoves, the Pops and use ratings of large units balance it out.
Group shoves and shoves with different sized creatures working together are intuitive.
Grabbing with one hand should be the stuff of heros.
Could separate warhammers onto being different to other 2h weapons, by smashing minifigs into each other.
Balances OP natural attacks

Thoughts?

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Maraxous
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by Maraxous » Sat May 04, 2019 6:02 pm

If the shove rules are to complex, just don't do wimpy shoves, and just kill the dudes. The unit is automatically disrupted when dead. :phil:

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stubby
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by stubby » Sat May 04, 2019 11:40 pm

If your plan was to simplify, I'm not sure this does the job.

HOWEVER - if these rules are more intuitive to you, then absolutely go ahead and use them. These are fine house rules.

Shoving and grabbing come up rarely enough that I'm not all that worried about the confusion, and I want to limit how much text I devote to them in the rulebook. If they came up more often I'd be more worried, but they're really only there for backup options when a regular attack isn't viable for some reason, and a regular attack is almost always viable.
Natalya wrote:Wtf is going on in this thread?

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by domminniti » Sun May 05, 2019 3:13 am

stubby wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 11:40 pm
If your plan was to simplify, I'm not sure this does the job.

HOWEVER - if these rules are more intuitive to you, then absolutely go ahead and use them. These are fine house rules.

Shoving and grabbing come up rarely enough that I'm not all that worried about the confusion, and I want to limit how much text I devote to them in the rulebook. If they came up more often I'd be more worried, but they're really only there for backup options when a regular attack isn't viable for some reason, and a regular attack is almost always viable.
I'm not sure about grabbing, but I'm going to playtest getting rid of shoving and saying certain weapons can deliver damage dice as concussion dice if chosen.
I'll let you know how it goes

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by Tzan » Sun May 05, 2019 10:44 am

Sometimes you just want to chest kick some Persian guy into a bottomless hole.

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stubby
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by stubby » Sun May 05, 2019 2:27 pm

domminniti wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 3:13 am
I'm not sure about grabbing, but I'm going to playtest getting rid of shoving and saying certain weapons can deliver damage dice as concussion dice if chosen.
I'll let you know how it goes
There's a little bit of that in there already, since all Medium and Two-Handed weapons automatically do 1" of KnockBack to minifigs on a hit already (Chapter 3: Minifig Weapons) and large weapons in general automatically do KnockBack to any target smaller than themselves (8.1: Weapon size).
Natalya wrote:Wtf is going on in this thread?

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