BW 2018 Feedback

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby ninja_bait » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:50 pm

stubby wrote:Commanders got changed a little bit to fit into the new Campaign rules, and to force their team to work for their Strategy bricks.


Reasonable changes, though I suspect that once we try it we will find that the commander himself still needs incentive to do something in battle besides hiding.  That's why with Fried Tomatoes the commander must remain in the thick of the battle and receives an additional bonus for getting kills himself.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby stubby » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:28 pm

Originally, the hiding was a balancing factor - you got this guy who could increase your forces unfairly, but he couldn't participate in the fight, so you were one man down until he called in that unfair advantage. Meanwhile he's hiding out in the back line, making himself a more and more valuable target each turn he piles on another strategy brick.

So it'd be nice to force him into positions of danger - maybe he has to be in range and "see" the enemy casualties in order to get strategy from their deaths - but I want to preserve that disadvantage of having one fewer minifig actively fighting.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby ninja_bait » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:36 pm

Interesting.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby stubby » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:33 pm

Continuing to fill things in; some 30 or 40 new or updated photos and illustrations, still slowly filling in the Campaigns rules.

Look for big updates in Chapter 10: Creatures today, where a couple things got rearranged in the Minds section (Mob Rule is now at the bottom of 10.1: Minds in preparation for rearranging some later chapters). 10.3: Animals got expanded to cover animals in more depth, and 10.4: Monsters has been added back in with simpler versions of some favorite monsters from earlier editions.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby ReconMiner » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:30 pm

Looks sweet! Great to see the pic from the Battle for the Glory of Satan.
One question I have, where in the rules does it talk about a Ram attack? I saw it mentioned for BlokBots but can't find it anywhere else.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby stubby » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:33 pm

It's one of the Natural Attacks at the bottom of 10.3.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby Vason » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:57 pm

stubby wrote:Originally, the hiding was a balancing factor - you got this guy who could increase your forces unfairly, but he couldn't participate in the fight, so you were one man down until he called in that unfair advantage. Meanwhile he's hiding out in the back line, making himself a more and more valuable target each turn he piles on another strategy brick.

So it'd be nice to force him into positions of danger - maybe he has to be in range and "see" the enemy casualties in order to get strategy from their deaths - but I want to preserve that disadvantage of having one fewer minifig actively fighting.


Perhaps he needs to have Binocs/telescope/etc in one hand, and a Radio/comms/etc in the other?
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby domminniti » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:27 am

Hi

I think the icons in the capitalism table for supports are mixed up.

As for feedback, I've played a few games with 2010 vs 2018 rules for CC.
I'm not sure which one I like more. I think I much prefer parrying only with shields, having the option to parry with weapons promoted passivity and defensiveness and made fights boil down to waiting for crit fails or success when dealing with 1h weapons. However lack of counterattacks reduced tactical options and gives no reason not to attempt a push with a shield as you'll be able to parry the attack on the enemies turn anyway.
Has anyone tried a halfway system with counter attacks but without weapon parries? What about a system where weapon parries have a general penalty, say -2 except for shields, making shields the king of parries and increasing the risk of parrying with weapons? I want a system with interesting risk/reward decisions.
2018 is better for larger battles but can sometimes feel a bit empty for skirmishes
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby stubby » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:00 am

domminniti wrote:I think the icons in the capitalism table for supports are mixed up.

Huh. You're right, they are. I wonder what happened there.

domminniti wrote:As for feedback, I've played a few games with 2010 vs 2018 rules for CC.
I'm not sure which one I like more. I think I much prefer parrying only with shields, having the option to parry with weapons promoted passivity and defensiveness and made fights boil down to waiting for crit fails or success when dealing with 1h weapons.

I packed the more complex fighting into the Hero's Dueling specialty, with the idea that eventually I'll spread it around to other close combat focused specialist units. The trick is figuring out where the risk/reward decisions are going to be interesting, and where they're just extra complexity with no benefit. Giving the full close combat options to every minifig on the field was too much; restricting them only to Heroes is probably too little.

domminniti wrote:However lack of counterattacks reduced tactical options and gives no reason not to attempt a push with a shield as you'll be able to parry the attack on the enemies turn anyway.

Remember that unlike 2010, you can't make a weapon attack and a shove in the same turn under the 2018 rules (unless you're a Hero); attempting that push means you give up the attack option. So there's still a tradeoff, just on a different axis.

domminniti wrote:Has anyone tried a halfway system with counter attacks but without weapon parries? What about a system where weapon parries have a general penalty, say -2 except for shields, making shields the king of parries and increasing the risk of parrying with weapons? I want a system with interesting risk/reward decisions.
2018 is better for larger battles but can sometimes feel a bit empty for skirmishes

I've definitely considered bringing back counterattacks for all minifigs, either after each active maneuver (maneuver -> parry -> counterattack -> counterparry) or just once after the active combatant finishes manuevers (maneuver -> parry -> 2nd maneuver -> 2nd parry -> counterattack -> counterparry). In either case, the ability to parry with weapons and to combine different maneuver types would still be Heroes only.

My standard for "interesting decisions" has changed over the years. I've moved away from focusing on where to put +1s and +2s for best tactical advantage, to focusing on whether an option increases or decreases the potential for action. Parries nullify action, so I want to discourage them. They may be interesting at the decision level but they lead to boring results at the action level. Counterattacks increase action, so I can give them a bigger potential chunk of the player attention span budget.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Postby domminniti » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:00 am

stubby wrote:I packed the more complex fighting into the Hero's Dueling specialty, with the idea that eventually I'll spread it around to other close combat focused specialist units. The trick is figuring out where the risk/reward decisions are going to be interesting, and where they're just extra complexity with no benefit. Giving the full close combat options to every minifig on the field was too much; restricting them only to Heroes is probably too little.


The other thing I think that needs thinking about is how to visually tell which units have these special rules - thats what I like about the system - most rules need to have bricks associated with them and have a equal cost - so I would like it if CC specialists had to carry or wear something interesting that gave them a real negative apart from just a dubuff to range attacks (which most will never use, so its not really a  dubuff   ). I like the idea that all figs are acually the same and its just ego, costumes and what they're holding that seperate them. Makes it much easier to play too.

stubby wrote:  
Remember that unlike 2010, you can't make a weapon attack and a shove in the same turn under the 2018 rules (unless you're a Hero); attempting that push means you give up the attack option. So there's still a tradeoff, just on a different axis.  
  

I didn't pick up on this at all - so to confirm, if I elect for my first attack to be a shield push, then I can't follow up with a strike with my second hand with short weapon?  You choose strikes, grabs or shove as your CC type then go thought weapons. So likewise I couldn't use one hand to grab, then use the other hand with short weapon to land a guaranteed hit.

stubby wrote:  
I've definitely considered bringing back counterattacks for all minifigs, either after each active maneuver (maneuver -> parry -> counterattack -> counterparry) or just once after the active combatant finishes manuevers (maneuver -> parry -> 2nd maneuver -> 2nd parry -> counterattack -> counterparry). In either case, the ability to parry with weapons and to combine different maneuver types would still be Heroes only.
  

I like this idea. I'll play with the 2nd option and report back. I like it because it cuts down on rolls and makes the phase more in the advantage of the active player. The only type of unit it seems to affect over the first option is 2 hand weapon guys - their buffed in their turn and nerfed in the opponents turn - which seems right flavour wise - if your a crazy dual weilder you go ham when you have the initiative but get overwhelmed on the defensive

stubby wrote:    
My standard for "interesting decisions" has changed over the years. I've moved away from focusing on where to put +1s and +2s for best tactical advantage, to focusing on whether an option increases or decreases the potential for action. Parries nullify action, so I want to discourage them. They may be interesting at the decision level but they lead to boring results at the action level. Counterattacks increase action, so I can give them a bigger potential chunk of the player attention span budget.

[/quote]    
Good point - pluses and minuses are evil - I forget to apply them a lot.  And I do find parries are narrative boring. When my dude sprints towards his enemy, says a one liner and makes a swipe for his head its so dull when his enemy rolls a 2 up for defection and 'nothing happens'.
I was suggesting this to mean more parry fails and therefore more disarmaments, but I agree that it still slows down the game too much.  I'd like more disarmanents in fights as they are a great way of developing narrative fights, interesting decisions and tactical advantages and turnarounds.
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