BW 2018 Feedback

Rules questions, suggestions, and discussion

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by ninja_bait » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:50 pm

stubby wrote:Commanders got changed a little bit to fit into the new Campaign rules, and to force their team to work for their Strategy bricks.
Reasonable changes, though I suspect that once we try it we will find that the commander himself still needs incentive to do something in battle besides hiding. That's why with Fried Tomatoes the commander must remain in the thick of the battle and receives an additional bonus for getting kills himself.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by stubby » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:28 pm

Originally, the hiding was a balancing factor - you got this guy who could increase your forces unfairly, but he couldn't participate in the fight, so you were one man down until he called in that unfair advantage. Meanwhile he's hiding out in the back line, making himself a more and more valuable target each turn he piles on another strategy brick.

So it'd be nice to force him into positions of danger - maybe he has to be in range and "see" the enemy casualties in order to get strategy from their deaths - but I want to preserve that disadvantage of having one fewer minifig actively fighting.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by ninja_bait » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:36 pm

Interesting.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by stubby » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:33 pm

Continuing to fill things in; some 30 or 40 new or updated photos and illustrations, still slowly filling in the Campaigns rules.

Look for big updates in Chapter 10: Creatures today, where a couple things got rearranged in the Minds section (Mob Rule is now at the bottom of 10.1: Minds in preparation for rearranging some later chapters). 10.3: Animals got expanded to cover animals in more depth, and 10.4: Monsters has been added back in with simpler versions of some favorite monsters from earlier editions.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by ReconMiner » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:30 pm

Looks sweet! Great to see the pic from the Battle for the Glory of Satan.
One question I have, where in the rules does it talk about a Ram attack? I saw it mentioned for BlokBots but can't find it anywhere else.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by stubby » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:33 pm

It's one of the Natural Attacks at the bottom of 10.3.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by Vason » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:57 pm

stubby wrote:Originally, the hiding was a balancing factor - you got this guy who could increase your forces unfairly, but he couldn't participate in the fight, so you were one man down until he called in that unfair advantage. Meanwhile he's hiding out in the back line, making himself a more and more valuable target each turn he piles on another strategy brick.

So it'd be nice to force him into positions of danger - maybe he has to be in range and "see" the enemy casualties in order to get strategy from their deaths - but I want to preserve that disadvantage of having one fewer minifig actively fighting.
Perhaps he needs to have Binocs/telescope/etc in one hand, and a Radio/comms/etc in the other?

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by domminniti » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:27 am

Hi

I think the icons in the capitalism table for supports are mixed up.

As for feedback, I've played a few games with 2010 vs 2018 rules for CC.
I'm not sure which one I like more. I think I much prefer parrying only with shields, having the option to parry with weapons promoted passivity and defensiveness and made fights boil down to waiting for crit fails or success when dealing with 1h weapons. However lack of counterattacks reduced tactical options and gives no reason not to attempt a push with a shield as you'll be able to parry the attack on the enemies turn anyway.
Has anyone tried a halfway system with counter attacks but without weapon parries? What about a system where weapon parries have a general penalty, say -2 except for shields, making shields the king of parries and increasing the risk of parrying with weapons? I want a system with interesting risk/reward decisions.
2018 is better for larger battles but can sometimes feel a bit empty for skirmishes

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by stubby » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:00 am

domminniti wrote:I think the icons in the capitalism table for supports are mixed up.
Huh. You're right, they are. I wonder what happened there.
domminniti wrote:As for feedback, I've played a few games with 2010 vs 2018 rules for CC.
I'm not sure which one I like more. I think I much prefer parrying only with shields, having the option to parry with weapons promoted passivity and defensiveness and made fights boil down to waiting for crit fails or success when dealing with 1h weapons.
I packed the more complex fighting into the Hero's Dueling specialty, with the idea that eventually I'll spread it around to other close combat focused specialist units. The trick is figuring out where the risk/reward decisions are going to be interesting, and where they're just extra complexity with no benefit. Giving the full close combat options to every minifig on the field was too much; restricting them only to Heroes is probably too little.
domminniti wrote:However lack of counterattacks reduced tactical options and gives no reason not to attempt a push with a shield as you'll be able to parry the attack on the enemies turn anyway.
Remember that unlike 2010, you can't make a weapon attack and a shove in the same turn under the 2018 rules (unless you're a Hero); attempting that push means you give up the attack option. So there's still a tradeoff, just on a different axis.
domminniti wrote:Has anyone tried a halfway system with counter attacks but without weapon parries? What about a system where weapon parries have a general penalty, say -2 except for shields, making shields the king of parries and increasing the risk of parrying with weapons? I want a system with interesting risk/reward decisions.
2018 is better for larger battles but can sometimes feel a bit empty for skirmishes
I've definitely considered bringing back counterattacks for all minifigs, either after each active maneuver (maneuver -> parry -> counterattack -> counterparry) or just once after the active combatant finishes manuevers (maneuver -> parry -> 2nd maneuver -> 2nd parry -> counterattack -> counterparry). In either case, the ability to parry with weapons and to combine different maneuver types would still be Heroes only.

My standard for "interesting decisions" has changed over the years. I've moved away from focusing on where to put +1s and +2s for best tactical advantage, to focusing on whether an option increases or decreases the potential for action. Parries nullify action, so I want to discourage them. They may be interesting at the decision level but they lead to boring results at the action level. Counterattacks increase action, so I can give them a bigger potential chunk of the player attention span budget.
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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by domminniti » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:00 am

stubby wrote: I packed the more complex fighting into the Hero's Dueling specialty, with the idea that eventually I'll spread it around to other close combat focused specialist units. The trick is figuring out where the risk/reward decisions are going to be interesting, and where they're just extra complexity with no benefit. Giving the full close combat options to every minifig on the field was too much; restricting them only to Heroes is probably too little.


The other thing I think that needs thinking about is how to visually tell which units have these special rules - thats what I like about the system - most rules need to have bricks associated with them and have a equal cost - so I would like it if CC specialists had to carry or wear something interesting that gave them a real negative apart from just a dubuff to range attacks (which most will never use, so its not really a dubuff ). I like the idea that all figs are acually the same and its just ego, costumes and what they're holding that seperate them. Makes it much easier to play too.
stubby wrote:
Remember that unlike 2010, you can't make a weapon attack and a shove in the same turn under the 2018 rules (unless you're a Hero); attempting that push means you give up the attack option. So there's still a tradeoff, just on a different axis.


I didn't pick up on this at all - so to confirm, if I elect for my first attack to be a shield push, then I can't follow up with a strike with my second hand with short weapon? You choose strikes, grabs or shove as your CC type then go thought weapons. So likewise I couldn't use one hand to grab, then use the other hand with short weapon to land a guaranteed hit.
stubby wrote:
I've definitely considered bringing back counterattacks for all minifigs, either after each active maneuver (maneuver -> parry -> counterattack -> counterparry) or just once after the active combatant finishes manuevers (maneuver -> parry -> 2nd maneuver -> 2nd parry -> counterattack -> counterparry). In either case, the ability to parry with weapons and to combine different maneuver types would still be Heroes only.


I like this idea. I'll play with the 2nd option and report back. I like it because it cuts down on rolls and makes the phase more in the advantage of the active player. The only type of unit it seems to affect over the first option is 2 hand weapon guys - their buffed in their turn and nerfed in the opponents turn - which seems right flavour wise - if your a crazy dual weilder you go ham when you have the initiative but get overwhelmed on the defensive
stubby wrote:
My standard for "interesting decisions" has changed over the years. I've moved away from focusing on where to put +1s and +2s for best tactical advantage, to focusing on whether an option increases or decreases the potential for action. Parries nullify action, so I want to discourage them. They may be interesting at the decision level but they lead to boring results at the action level. Counterattacks increase action, so I can give them a bigger potential chunk of the player attention span budget.
[/quote]
Good point - pluses and minuses are evil - I forget to apply them a lot. And I do find parries are narrative boring. When my dude sprints towards his enemy, says a one liner and makes a swipe for his head its so dull when his enemy rolls a 2 up for defection and 'nothing happens'.
I was suggesting this to mean more parry fails and therefore more disarmaments, but I agree that it still slows down the game too much. I'd like more disarmanents in fights as they are a great way of developing narrative fights, interesting decisions and tactical advantages and turnarounds.

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by domminniti » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:24 pm

Hi

Apologies for the double post.

I think the rulebook does a brilliant job of introducing concepts in an understandable way, but I think it's not as strong as a reference document. I thought it would be good to try and make a flowchart for combat so I'd remember what order to do things and remember all the particular rules for MOCs. It got a bit complicated! I've ended up changing the definitions of some of the combat mechanics, whist keeping the rules more or less the same (apart from a couple of things, units larger than minfigs can do a shove then a strike if they have the power).

But I have re-defined things a little. For example its the 'aiming' that costs an action, as it wasnt clear to me when a unit reqired an action to engage in CC in the previous system, and this maybe clears up the 'can I fire multiple weapons' question.
I've tried to combine ranged and CC into one flowchart and just made all attacks sort of equal, and added double power requirements to shove and grab to stop mini-figs wombo-comboing. I think with this you could attack an enemy with a sword, then disengage and shoot the same target with a pistol, if you survive the counter strike. But you couldn't aim at someone else.

The overall flow is

Aim Attack
Response Action (bail/attack)
Parry
Roll to Hit / near miss
Apply Hit effects (damage, knockback etc)
Duellists can counter
Chargers charge forward (perhaps collisions) otherwise go back to Aim Attack with that unit or another unit

I would like to combine parry and response action, but response actions require an action, but parries just require a weapon/hand and power

Obviously formatting here is not great, but I thought I'd get it down in text and then maybe do it in easier to visualise boxes like a flowchart. And I think the overall nomenclature could use tightening up.

I'd love some help with this! Maybe you think its more confusing this way and it would be better to split it back to how it is in the rule book, and just have it written in flow chart form. It would be do-able but would probably require a lot of repeat information in the flowchart

Choose Combat Manoeuvre Type
Disengage
Attack
Strike
Spends WepSize of Power
Range CC
Requires
Any weapon or object
Shove
Spends min 2 power, even with 1 hand/shield, unless Duelist
Range CC
Combined size of shovers must equal size of target
Requires
2 empty hands
or 2h weapon
or Sheild
or Animals
Grab
Spends min 2 power, even with 1 hand, unless Duelist
Range CC
Requires
Free hand or grabber
or Mouth
Ranged Attack
Spends wepSize Power
Standard
Any ranged, except shotgun and flamethrower.
Thrown weapons up to Wsize < 2x effective size
Arc
Shotguns, flamethrowers, Machine Guns
Ranged Burst
Machine Guns

Disengage
Up to 3 opponents may counter-strike
counter-strikers get free action to target disengager if required
Counter Strike
counter-strikers must
have ability to make CC Attack with use of Angry Inch
have power and weapons to make CC attack
not be disrupted
be able to see disengager in cone of vision
spends counter-strikers' action
can only attack with 1 weapon per counter-strike
Disengager may opt to spend action Parry or Bail, just as if they were the target of a normal attack
If disengager survives may take Angry Inch and then move freely and act freely
if disengager moves out of range of CC weapons no longer in CC

Attack
Select Attacker(s) and Weapons - select multiple for combined damage
Keep in mind limits to attackers from CC attacks
Attackers must
Have enough power and unused weapons to attack with
Have action or already be aiming at the target from a previous attack this turn
if Ranged Attack
If unit engaged in CC, it must Disengage first, giving option of Counter-Strikes
Must have line of sight or a good idea of location for blind fire, or a spotter for indirect fire
if CC Attack
Must be able to get in range for a valid attack
if not engaged in CC may use one of the following to get into CC Range
Move + Angry Inch
Charge with move
Charge with move plus sprint (with free aim at target)
If Engaged in CC may only use Angry Inch to get into range


Choose Damage Type
Standard Size damage
Standard Component
Grinding Component
N/A (for push and grab)


Aim at Target (or arc direction)
If this is a new target (or arc direction) this turn for this Attacker
The Attacker requires an action, which is now spent
no mini-fig can be the target of more than 3 CC attackers per turn
how does this rule apply for non 1" units?
May be a part of a unit for component damage

For each attack against target
Extra attacks on a target for Bursts, and an extra attack for each point of arc that the target spans completely
(Note, any identical attacks can be rolled simultaneously, apart from burst and arc fire due to reloads, and CC attacks against dualists due to counterstrikes)

Defender may choose a Response Action - Bail or Preemptive Attack

Defender must
have an action
not be disrupted
be able to see attack in cone of vision
vs ranged attacks
not be in CC
Bail
Spends action
Bail Knockback = ActionRoll - 1d4 x FireLevel
Deflection armoured bail at half speed
Over the Top Action can remove disruption or add d6 to distance
Critical Fail is fall and disrupted where stood


Preemptive Attack
Can use action to return fire with a Ranged Attack or CC Attack.
May use Angry Inch to get into position
1" longer weapon hits first for CC, otherwise simultaneous

Defender May opt to Parry
Parry
Parrying object must be unused
Spends parryer's action if unspent
Parryer must
not be disrupted
be able to see attack in cone of vision
be smaller than double the attacker's size
Parry with use rating for object used to parry
Standard Modifiers To Parry
+1 per 2" of attacking weapon size
-1 if outnumbered
-d4 per fire level

Strike & Ranged Attack
Shield only
Duellists may parry with weapon as well

Parry Success
Gain deflection x shield size
Parry Crit Success
+deflection
Parry Crit Fail
shield knocked away 1" x attacker's roll

Shove
-2 per 1" attacker bigger than defender

Parry Success
Shove cancelled
Parry Crit Success
Shove or Grab or Strike them back?
Parry crit Fail
weapon knocked away 1" x attacker's roll
Add damage?


Grab
Parry Sucess
Grab cancelled
Parry Crit Success
Shove or Grab or Strike them back?
Parry crit Fail
weapon knocked away 1"Xattacker's roll
Add damage?



Roll to Hit
if ranged Calculate range Out of Range penalty
OOR = Weapon range +1 per 1" altitude difference - distance to target
Using a weapon spends
The attacking unit's power,equal to the weapon's size
The use of that weapon for the turn
Some units get d8 skill if not moved this turn
Modfiers to hit
+ Target Size Modifier
-d4 per fire level
-5 for blind fire
-1 if outnumbered when attacking from CC
Ranged Only
+1 if target disrupted
-1 per 1" Out of Range
-1 per auto penalty
+1 per "home in" bonus
+1 per gunnery support bonus
CC Only
if target disrupted - autohit
if target is stopped by a grab, or is grabbing, or if attacker is grabbing target -autohit
Shove & Grab Only
If attacker 2x bigger than target
use rating is attacker's size
else autohit

if natural 6+ - Over the Top - choose one
+1d6 to action to hit
+1 damage dice
+1d6 to knockback if weapon has it
+d6 to range if weapon has it
Target smaller nearby component
if natural max may add 1d6 to that roll as a Bonus Dice

if Machine Gun in Arc or Burst Mode
if natural roll < auto penalty
Out of Ammo - Stop here and require reload next turn

Target Hit if Result + Modifiers >= Weapon Use

if Miss and not Arc Fire
defender can nominate a koincidental Hit of his choice (Die Result + Modifiers - WeaponUse) inches away from target

if Hit
Shove
target takes 2" knockback
What about size differnce? is there a bonus knockback?
if charge
Attacker can spend MOM for D10 knockback
Apply knockback inches
if hits larger object
knocked back unit stops
apply 1 Smash Damage per inch stopped
if stopped same size object or smaller?
they get knocked back remaining inches too?

Grab
Attacker has now grabbed target - until grabber is killed, shoved or releases grab (free action at any point)
If target size <= grabber size - target is stopped and everyone gets auto hits against both.
if grabber size < target size, target is not slowed and only they get auto hits against each other
if combined grabber size >= target size , target is slowed half speed and only they get auto hits against each other

Ranged or Strike
Remove any die due to deflection from each damage source
(weapon +1 and +2 damages are not removed and cumulative)
Armour Pearcing, (eg Heavy weapons, if used 2h) remove the +2, not the d6
Target Heros may attempt redshirting once per combined attack
Free action
Nominate redshirt
roll hero's action
redshirt leaps that distance to intercept (heavy armour half speed)


Charge
May spend MOM on +1 Action Dice of Damage limited by Charging WepSize
Roll Damage Dice - combine any critical rolls
Modifiers
-d4 per fire level
Ranged only
-1 per Out of Range
+1s on long range weapons
CC Only
-1 for tool, -2 for random object
+2 for undeflected or 1h Heavy Weapons
if Explosion, Blast or Arc Fire
+ Target Size Modifier
if Blast Fire
-1 per inch range

Track alternative effects
Fire
remove die due to deflection
for each die of fire damage
if fire damage +- modifiers > defender weight class (no of original d10s) and not critical fail
Firelevel +1 up to unit size
create/ alter field hazard to match fire level
Explosives
use 1x d10 damage per explosive size
Roll all d10 damage dice
Roll bonus d6s, keeping them by their original d10s
for each 2" radius from explosion center
for each object OR component in explosion radius
Deal Damage
+ 1 Damage x Target Size Modifier
subtract score of highest rolling dice including bonuses per level of deflection
Damage accumulates with any previous damage from ranged attacks and armour rolls etc
Apply 1" Knockback per remaining D10s (including set aside deflection dice)
remove highest d10 and any associated bonus d6s

Concussion
+d6 Knockback resisted by POP per concussion dice

Blast
if blast and target size < weapon size, add 1" Knockback

Deliver Damage
Grinding Damage
For every die that comes up > weight class (starting D10s)
+1 grinding Damage to component
Standard Damage
Roll Armour / compare to remaining Armour - combine critical roles
-d4 per fire level
-1 per grinding level
if Damage > Armour
Size damage
Remove 1 effective size
Destroyed if 0 effective size
look for overkill to remove next size, or unit behind
Component Damage
Component removed
look for overkill component
if Damage = Armour
Stun or disrupt, or remove limb, or some minor damage, or 1 grinding damage
if damage< Armour
Keep note of remaining armour


If target alive
if "loose" Deliver Knockback
if Charge
Spend MOM on Crash Thrust= +d6 MOM -d6 POP (target effective size)
if Crash Thrust <=0
Charger Stops
if Crash Thrust > 0
Charger loses POP x MOMs and continues
Crash Thrust added to Knockback
+1" for each 1" of attacker weapon size - target effective size
Apply Knockback inches
if hits larger object
knocked back unit stops
apply 1 Smash Damage per inch stopped
if stopped same size object or smaller?
they get knocked back remaining inches too?

If target alive
If target is Duellist and in CC of attacker
May CC Counter-Strike

If Charge
Unit can only attack a target once per charge, so must carry on to the limit of its move inches
If Collision
if target Disrupted
1 Damage x size difference to smaller squashed unit
else
If target or charger has weight >=1 (starting d10s) Crash Damage
both units deliver d6 x(weight -deflection) limited by total MOMs to the other unit
MOM is not spent on crash damage
if target loose
Spend MOM on Crash Thrust= +d6 MOM -d6 POP (target effective size)
if Crash Thrust <=0
Charger Stops
if Crash Thrust > 0
Charger loses POP x MOMs and continues
Crash Thrust added to Knockback

Apply Knockback inches
if hits larger object
knocked back unit stops
apply 1 Smash Damage per inch stopped
if stopped same size object or smaller?
they get knocked back remaining inches too?

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by Tzan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:32 pm

Yes.

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by stubby » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:27 am

I've got a bunch to say in response here but the baby is not having it. You'd be amazed how much a baby can disrupt your ability to type when he throws his full weight into it. So I'll try to hit these one as a time as I'm able to.
domminniti wrote:most rules need to have bricks associated with them and have a equal cost - so I would like it if CC specialists had to carry or wear something interesting that gave them a real negative apart from just a dubuff to range attacks (which most will never use, so its not really a dubuff ).
Most of the time I don't feel like persistent debuffs are that thematically satisfying, especially if it's something unrelated to the bonus. A CC bonus balanced by a ranged debuff is just dumb, and I'm dumb for ever using that idea (I think with Ninjas at some point?). Even if it balanced the unit, it feels kludgey and stupid, and I'd rather have units that feel fun and thematic even if it means they're not balanced to be perfectly equal to a stock minifig.

Ideally I want minifig units to be completely normal except when they're actively using their specialty, so that players don't have to waste brainspace remembering the extra details except when they're specifically using the special ability.

Part of what's eventually going to balance these guys is the equipment loadout, especially now that equipment is based on the hands requirement. A minifig can start a battle with anything, but a rifleman has to start with a rifle, a heavy has to start with a heavy weapon, etc. This can get limiting as a campaign drags on.

The other thing that's going to balance these guys is that I'm moving 90% of them over to the campaign rules. Core rules get the minifig (no limit) and the hero (limit one). Moc combat gets the mechanik (tool requirement / one hand used up), heavy (weapon limitation and move debuff), gunner (mounted weapon requirement), medik (tool requirement / one hand used up), and pilot (vehicle requirement). The campaign rules get everybody else, and that's where committing to specific specialists (and specialist production capacities) becomes its own limitation.
Natalya wrote:Wtf is going on in this thread?

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by domminniti » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:01 am

The hands rule works very well for non combat specialists - give them a thing that they have to carry that makes them worse in combat for extra utility outside of it. If it's a more combat oriented specialist it gets harder to do that with hands though, as most would like both hands for combat. The Heavy seems like a good trade off in terms of rules on paper, but gameplay wise I often forget about the different armour and move values. I think they would still work just with big weapon and the need not to move to use them, which works more with your principle of specialities only really affecting the phase they are concerned with.

Perhaps any CC specialism would offer a downside like Overconfidence: this minifigs abilities in close combat instil them with a foolhardy overconfidence. If they kill an enemy unit they can't help but pause to say a witty one liner or strike a dashing pose, giving up to 3 minifig sized enemies with unused hands the opportunity to counter strike as if he was disengaging. (Or could make it 1 free strike even with a used weapon, would need play testing)

This would mean that they would get a good chance of kills, with d8, or duelist, but they often get cut down in response.

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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Post by Theblackdog » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:55 am

So here's a basic issue that nonetheless comes off as confusing.
When attacking with a weapon, your Action Roll needs to be Greater than or equal to the weapon's UR. So if you roll equal to the UR, it's a successful roll and a hit.
But your Damage roll needs to be Greater than your target's Armor value- so if you roll equal to the target's Armor, it's a failed roll and no damage.

You could justify this based on the physical nature of whatever-it-is the Action and Damage rolls are supposed to represent - but from a game design perspective, it would probably be best if a roll equal to the target value consistently meant either success or failure.
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