Fleet Forum Battle

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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby ninja_bait » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:44 pm

I shall now pontificate on fleet combat.  Questions and comments welcome.

Building The Fleets

Almost every vessel in this fleet has been in development over several years.  This battle represents a major milestone for me, where I am really happy with the design language for both navies and enough vehicles in each to say that I have two respectable fleets.  I definitely believe that the combined fleet would outgun many of the other space navies out there, which is a nice comfy place to be.

Since there seems to be interest, here are a few guiding principles that I use to design my ships:

I start from the lore - why does this ship exist, how was it made, and what is the defining moment in its history?  The story behind the Valkyrie II heavy fighter is that it is actually built using the spaceframe of the standard fighter.  The silhouette is almost the same, just turned on its side.  The SHIP Buster is supposed to be an existing weapon that just needed something to carry it.  And the armored, modernized look befits its origins as a cutting edge prototype.  This thing comes out of nowhere during a traditional fleet engagement and just starts slicing up the capital ships.

I work "details up."  While I do come up with a rough sketch of the shape of a large ship first, the next thing I do is come up with the awesome little details.  Every time I build something and scrap it, there are things that I keep in a box of table scraps for the next go around.  For the Artemis, almost everything from the Chickadee Interceptors to the captain's chair was already built.  I just had to figure out where to put them and how to keep them there.

I build a sturdy box and then build on top of it.  The red fleet is built almost entirely studs-up.  It's part of the look, and it creates a sturdy body that can handle moving around on a battlefield.  The Artemis is built with an internal technic beam frame and the walls are hung from the top with clips.  The hangar and the first four inches on either side are very heavy studs-up construction, with a thick beam going across the top and 2 three-brick tall beams across the keel and 2 stud thick walls.  This was absolutely necessary to prevent the ends from sagging under the weight of the walls.

Setting Up The Battle

In this battle, I did my best to hew closely to the BW18 rules.  It was fairly straightforward to stat out each of the vehicles.  (You can see the stat cards I made in the OP.)  For the most part, I was happy with the stats as they were, and none of the ships behaved "out of character."  There were a few things that I tweaked, or wish I had tweaked:
- The use rating on the SHIP Buster is 10 - way too high for a single pilot to successfully fire the gun.  I added the ability to accumulate that over two turns.
- The Light Frigate (which I realize should be classified as a torpedo boat, it's too small to be a frigate) has two Flak Cannons that I statted as 2" BlastGuns.  These were useless in space combat because the damage falloff is too punishing.  I would probably tweak it by giving it no Use penalty for out-of-range targets, but the damage falloff begins beyond the range.  I think that would let it serve the intended purpose of throwing handfuls of metal garbage at closely grouped fighters.
- Also, I gave the frigate a 2d10 armor, but that was a little too squishy - next time it gets 3d10.  A little less glass, a little more cannon.
- I invented an Electronic Warfare Package to give the shuttle and freighter more to do in the battle.  It really didn't do much in this battle.  I think the jamming action, which removes a d8 from a nearby operator's action roll (say to prevent successful use of a torpedo) was more powerful than the gunnery bonus, but the gunnery bonus is better for escalating combat.
- The main guns on the warships have turd ranges - 10".  It is true that the effective ranges are a little higher because the targets are big, but I still had to basically smash the ships into each other to land real hits.  I would probably tweak up the range by increasing the power, because none of the vessels were maxed out in terms of weapons.

I tried to bring in a variety of interesting specialty units.  Obviously Gunners and Pilots are very important.  I originally put Mechaniks on the warships, but changed them to Engineers because at this scale, there's not much use in building or patching.  If you have a Scotty, your ships become much more flexible.  I added in Teks as part of the bridge crews with a tweak that as long as they were at the Tek console, they could support any operator at a connected console in the ship.  That's a nice, powerful specialty that befits an ops officer or copilot.  I had a lot of trouble assigning a specialty to the captains, and ultimately assigned nothing to them.  I think next time, I would make them Commanders, probably with special strategy options.  I've thought of "Attack Pattern Alpha" which would give a movement bonus to the entire fleet of 1d6" times the number of strategy bricks used.  There might be some other options that suit the space battle trope like "Omega 13" or "Lock in Auxiliary Power" or "Hyperspace Kamikaze".

Something that surprised me was that Ü was actually really effective in determining whether the game would be balanced.  At this scale, the individual unit types and weapons loadouts barely matter.  What mattered was that the Counciliar fleet is about 30 inches shorter than the Imperial fleet, even with large boarding parties factored in, and it was destroyed pretty easily in this battle.  But a strength of Brikwars is that it works well with asymmetric warfare.  In order to balance the battle, I made the objectives different.  There was no way the Counciliar fleet could destroy the Artemis - something that big is more of an environment than a vehicle.  All they had to do to win was get in, get something, and get out.  I put the Imperial fighters out of position, so that the Counciliar fleet would basically get a free turn to engage the Artemis, and an opportunity to unload boarding parties.  I purposely gave the Artemis a small security staff so that once inside, the boarding parties would get an edge.

Running The Game

I could not find a rule that dictates how many rockets I can fire in a single action.  Rockets are super powerful so I nerfed them to one per target per turn.  But as far as I could tell, I can just fire as many as I want.  I also didn't have a good rule for whether a rocket would hit on the current turn or on the next one.  Next time I would use a reference speed of 15" to decide that.

I really like the damage system.  There is a tense moment that happens when you have 4 inches of structure left and 53 more damage points to tank and you just don't know if this is going to be the end of your creation.  It is a lot of rolling, when you're dealing with 14 2" guns and a 7d10 explosive that just meatshot the center of the enemy ship, and they have 28 inches of structure left, but that seems appropriate for the scale.  I like to imagine each armor roll as a new crack in the armor or a minor electrical system failing.  These things soak up the damage without interrupting the ship's functions, up to a point.  And it does seem to make the relative scales work well - little fighters can be killed in a single salvo from a large warship, two capital ships will spend three or four turns broadsiding each other before one is defeated.

For this battle, I used Standard Maneuvering, anything more detailed would have been a pain.

For spacewalking, I decided that figs will move in a straight line at their movement speed until they land on something.  Figs with jetpacks can change direction.

One issue with the Artemis is accessibility.  It is a cramped ship, so it was hard to stage and photograph the fig combat.  Something I need to fix.

I need to get more effects bricks for blood, fire, and lasers.

Cleaning Up

Before I started this battle I reviewed the famous CAID Sector and the insightful but somewhat illegible comments from Strana and Roc77.  BW18 seems to have resolved several issues they had in BW05: the torpedoes feel fairly balanced, the structure damage system is greatly improved, with Creation Mods you can customize guns to get that low damage long range that's appropriate for point defense.  I think their conclusion was that missiles suck, big guns rule; my opinion is that now big guns suck and missiles rule.  I can't really find a rule change that makes that true, it might just be the way the battle went.  Also it is still true that boarding parties are the best part of fig scale fleet engagements.

I was pleasantly surprised that it didn't take too much fudge to make the battle work with BW18.  I was left with a lot of ideas moving forward to increase the size of the fleets and some more interesting situations for fleet combat.  Hopefully you guys are inspired to get paying jobs or whatever it takes to go bigger with your battles.

Next time: Duel for the Dew
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby AnnoyedZebra » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:13 am

*notes all this down*
the rules advice makes me want to get my shit together and play a proper game of bw2018

the aesthetic advice is very solid but I'd just like to add this article
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby ninja_bait » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:22 am

Good article :thumbsup:
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby Cakeman » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:28 am

Great writeup about lessons learned. Also i was really interested in the design thoughts, as I am in the middle of building my first ship but have lost flow in the process (it mockingly just sits there in my room). Thanks for your effort in the analysis.
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby stubby » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:42 am

ninja_bait wrote:- The Light Frigate (which I realize should be classified as a torpedo boat, it's too small to be a frigate) has two Flak Cannons that I statted as 2" BlastGuns.  These were useless in space combat because the damage falloff is too punishing.  I would probably tweak it by giving it no Use penalty for out-of-range targets, but the damage falloff begins beyond the range.  I think that would let it serve the intended purpose of throwing handfuls of metal garbage at closely grouped fighters.

3" might work better, since the damage scales but the damage falloff doesn't. 2" is more appropriate for missile point defense than fighter point defense. Speaking of which,

ninja_bait wrote:I could not find a rule that dictates how many rockets I can fire in a single action.  Rockets are super powerful so I nerfed them to one per target per turn.  But as far as I could tell, I can just fire as many as I want.  I also didn't have a good rule for whether a rocket would hit on the current turn or on the next one.  Next time I would use a reference speed of 15" to decide that.

Now that I've set 15" as a general standard move rating for fighters, having missiles also move 15" would make things really exciting. How have we not had missile chases in BrikWars before now? Classic genre trope. It'd give those Pilots a good incentive for response-action Stunt Driving, too.

Also, giving missiles a speed would make them much more explicit as physical objects with position and movement. That would make it a lot more intuitive for players to set up point defense cannons with response actions.

Right now the only rule limiting rocket fire is just the usual weapon Power limit, but that may not be an effective limitation for very large ships. Eventually you have to run out of rockets though, unless you've loaded up your ship with so many rockets that enemies can just shoot them and blow you up with your own munitions.

When everything was CP-based, rockets made more sense because you were getting a bunch of power but you could only use it once. Under Unit Inches, infinite rockets are free, so I haven't come up with a good counterbalance yet. It might just be something as kludgey as "you can't carry more explosive dice in total than your own size, or they hit critical mass and blow up."

ninja_bait wrote:- The main guns on the warships have turd ranges - 10".  It is true that the effective ranges are a little higher because the targets are big, but I still had to basically smash the ships into each other to land real hits.  I would probably tweak up the range by increasing the power, because none of the vessels were maxed out in terms of weapons.

There are a couple of things I might try to account for airless space: doubling the ranges of all weapons, or removing the out of range penalties to damage (but not to Use).

ninja_bait wrote:I tried to bring in a variety of interesting specialty units.  Obviously Gunners and Pilots are very important.  I originally put Mechaniks on the warships, but changed them to Engineers because at this scale, there's not much use in building or patching.  If you have a Scotty, your ships become much more flexible.

This is the why the engineer unit was invented. Mechaniks or astromech droids might be useful on smaller ships that aren't expecting to go up against capital ship weapons.

ninja_bait wrote:I added in Teks as part of the bridge crews with a tweak that as long as they were at the Tek console, they could support any operator at a connected console in the ship.

Smart.

ninja_bait wrote:I had a lot of trouble assigning a specialty to the captains, and ultimately assigned nothing to them.  I think next time, I would make them Commanders, probably with special strategy options.  I've thought of "Attack Pattern Alpha" which would give a movement bonus to the entire fleet of 1d6" times the number of strategy bricks used.  There might be some other options that suit the space battle trope like "Omega 13" or "Lock in Auxiliary Power" or "Hyperspace Kamikaze".

Captains fit best with the abilities of Leaders, although you'd have to fudge the Tool requirement (Inspirational Tool: A StarShip). Fleet command abilities are outside the scope of individual captains, usually; for that you'd want to designate one as an overall fleet Commander. Think Captain Kirk versus Admiral Ackbar.


ninja_bait wrote:But a strength of Brikwars is that it works well with asymmetric warfare.  In order to balance the battle, I made the objectives different.  There was no way the Counciliar fleet could destroy the Artemis - something that big is more of an environment than a vehicle.  All they had to do to win was get in, get something, and get out.  I put the Imperial fighters out of position, so that the Counciliar fleet would basically get a free turn to engage the Artemis, and an opportunity to unload boarding parties.  I purposely gave the Artemis a small security staff so that once inside, the boarding parties would get an edge.

One thing I've really struggled with is trying to make guidelines for this kind of thing. Ü makes it easy to tell if one side is way overmatched, but once you have that info, what do you do with it? These are all good ad hoc adjustments, but I don't know how to systemize it other than telling players they're on their own and good luck.

ninja_bait wrote:For this battle, I used Standard Maneuvering, anything more detailed would have been a pain.

For the larger ships I probably would have used pull thrust rather than standard maneuvering or push thrust; I like the feel of big ships getting caught up in their own maneuvering limits while fighters are jinking all around them. But I think that's a matter of taste more than anything else.

ninja_bait wrote:For spacewalking, I decided that figs will move in a straight line at their movement speed until they land on something.  Figs with jetpacks can change direction.

What I really need to do is add a section to Field Hazards about specific battlefield environments. Space, ocean, undersea, ice, etc.
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby stubby » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:33 am

stubby wrote:"you can't carry more explosive dice in total than your own size, or they hit critical mass and blow up."

Alternately - your number of carried explosive dice could factor into some kind of Volatility rating; any time you take damage, your Volatility adds a bonus to your chances of Premature Detonation.
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby ninja_bait » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:55 am

stubby wrote:3" might work better, since the damage scales but the damage falloff doesn't. 2" is more appropriate for missile point defense than fighter point defense.


I might try that.  BlastGuns are just not all that powerful, so I might need a different option altogether.

stubby wrote:Now that I've set 15" as a general standard move rating for fighters, having missiles also move 15" would make things really exciting. How have we not had missile chases in BrikWars before now? Classic genre trope. It'd give those Pilots a good incentive for response-action Stunt Driving, too.

Also, giving missiles a speed would make them much more explicit as physical objects with position and movement. That would make it a lot more intuitive for players to set up point defense cannons with response actions.

Right now the only rule limiting rocket fire is just the usual weapon Power limit, but that may not be an effective limitation for very large ships. Eventually you have to run out of rockets though, unless you've loaded up your ship with so many rockets that enemies can just shoot them and blow you up with your own munitions.

When everything was CP-based, rockets made more sense because you were getting a bunch of power but you could only use it once. Under Unit Inches, infinite rockets are free, so I haven't come up with a good counterbalance yet. It might just be something as kludgey as "you can't carry more explosive dice in total than your own size, or they hit critical mass and blow up."


All of this, yes.  There are a number of trade-offs to get the high damage output from ship-to-ship missiles - high use rating, time to impact, the ability to shoot them down or dodge, finite quantities.  They are sort of there in the rules but it might help to make them explicit.  I don't know if I like either this kludgey thing or Volatility.  Mostly because the Artemis would be a powder keg under these rules.  Maybe I would say that, unlike regular guns, missiles "use up" an action roll - so if I roll a 14 for my action, I could fire one 7x explosive, or two 3x explosives, but not all three together.  That is equivalent to how I played it in this battle.

stubby wrote:There are a couple of things I might try to account for airless space: doubling the ranges of all weapons, or removing the out of range penalties to damage (but not to Use).


I wouldn't bother.  Stuff like this is where you need to get your fire rings out.  Like I said, there's headroom in all of my ships to Creation Mod the guns to get extra range at the cost of more power.  I would rather do that than have stats that are environment-dependent.

stubby wrote:Captains fit best with the abilities of Leaders, although you'd have to fudge the Tool requirement (Inspirational Tool: A StarShip). Fleet command abilities are outside the scope of individual captains, usually; for that you'd want to designate one as an overall fleet Commander. Think Captain Kirk versus Admiral Ackbar.


Well, what's more inspirational than a ship-wide PA system?  For the Blue Navy, the captain really is a fleet Commander in the vein of Ackbar, so I would still stick to the Strategic Intervention specialty with the extra fleet options.  For a lesser captain, I did look at Inspiration and Coordination.  But ship captains command specialists who already roll d8's for their primary actions, so the Tek is better for boosting the action roll (especially because moving up a die size increases your odds of going Over the Top), and Engineers can give much larger buffs to the vessel, even after Rationalization.  As realistic as it is that the commanding officer is nowhere near as useful as his crew, I felt that both options just didn't have the right tactical spiciness that befits a ship captain.  Since I'm in the office, I just thought of Corporate Synergy: As an action, the Executive can make a Forecast, listing all the actions/specialty rolls his staff will take in the turn.  He will then roll all the action dice for his staff and assign the results as desired.

Also, I would suggest that Captain Kirk's specialty is not Inspiration, but Cheating.

stubby wrote:One thing I've really struggled with is trying to make guidelines for this kind of thing. Ü makes it easy to tell if one side is way overmatched, but once you have that info, what do you do with it? These are all good ad hoc adjustments, but I don't know how to systemize it other than telling players they're on their own and good luck.


There's probably a whole chapter on scenario design floating around in our collective knowledge.  Here some things that I think give you quantifiable bonuses:
- Several smaller units against a single large unit (Basically, an action economy)
- Initiative and surprise (Give the smaller army an extra turn to knock out some of the excess Ü early)
- Defense and offense (Holding a fortified position seems to be easier than taking it)
- Objective balance (Red boarders outnumber the Blue security, Blue ships outnumber the Red ships)
- Home field advantage (The guy who set up the battle and knows what all the stuff does should probably play the underdog army)

Let's get Colette to do the math for us on what the actual value of these is in Ü.

stubby wrote:For the larger ships I probably would have used pull thrust rather than standard maneuvering or push thrust; I like the feel of big ships getting caught up in their own maneuvering limits while fighters are jinking all around them. But I think that's a matter of taste more than anything else.


Yeah, I did that too sometimes, especially for the Artemis.  I wasn't consistent though - just did whatever I thought would be coolest - so that's standard maneuvering.
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby stubby » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:15 pm

My main worry with Explosives right now is actually to do with Commanders' ability to call in Reinforcements. A losing battle can be easily cheesed by Reinforcing in a pickup truck loaded with bombs.

Here's what I'm looking at now. An update to Premature Detonation:

Premature Detonation
For all the hilarity that Explosive weapons bring when dropped into enemy ranks, they're even funnier when minifigs fall victim to their own ordnance's Premature Detonation.

Improvised or low-tech Explosive weapons (and armed missiles in flight) are Unstable. A single point of damage is enough to set off gunpowder kegs, dynamite sticks, fireworks, nitroglycerine, angry soccer moms, and those red fuel barrels wisely left lying around everywhere by the inhabitants of first-person shooters.

Modern and high-tech Explosive weapons can be made intentionally Unstable by attaching them to mercury switches or proximity sensors, but otherwise they're more difficult to set off accidentally. Grenades, plastic explosives, nuclear warheads, and internal combustion engines depend on specific priming mechanisms to trigger their Explosions. Fortunately, minifig safety precautions are half-hearted at best, and Semi-Stable Explosives can be Detonated Prematurely as well with a little more Damage.

Any time an Unstable Explosive weapon is damaged directly, it immediately goes off, doing its full Explosion Damage wherever it happens to be. Any time a Semi-Stable Explosive weapon takes more points of Damage than its Explosive Size (XSize), it's activated, and will go off at the end of the current player's turn. Minifigs are free to use Response Actions to try and dispose of the weapon or to encourage a friend or well-wisher to jump on it and save them.

Even if Explosive weapons aren't damaged directly, they can fall victim to damage dealt to the Creation holding them. Adding together the XSize from Explosives, Rockets, Ammo, and Payloads, a Creation can securely hold as many total points of XSize as its own inches of current Effective Size. Past that amount, the Creation is either too small or too damaged to provide the necessary stability, and it must roll 1d10 each time it takes a point of Size Damage. If the number rolled is less than the total points of XSize carried by the Creation, the player controlling it must choose a set of Explosive weapons worth at least as many XSize points as the number rolled to Prematurely Detonate. If the number rolled is equal or greater, the weapons are rattled but not set off.

Armed missiles in flight are automatically Unstable, so Blast weapons become a little more effective as point defense against them.
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby ReconMiner » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:45 pm

On a related note, underwater combat could also benefit from examination. It's somewhat similar to space combat, just a bit wetter  
-using some weapons underwater could impose penalties (ex, missile fly short due to drag)
-Shockwaves impacting a larger area
-Hull breaches slowing down speed and flooding compartments
-Sailors multitasking holding their breath and firing at incoming frogmen

Maybe have the next game take place underwater?  :wink:
(Random warp into an ocean planet, anyone?)
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby ninja_bait » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:24 pm

stubby wrote:My main worry with Explosives right now is actually to do with Commanders' ability to call in Reinforcements. A losing battle can be easily cheesed by Reinforcing in a pickup truck loaded with bombs.


I'm not sure I see the problem with this...
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby stubby » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:23 am

With no limit on the explosives units can carry, a Size 3" truck loaded with 50d10 worth of bombs shows up late in the battle. With your forces tied down, you can't bring enough force to bear on the truck to destroy it before it drives into position alongside your base and offloads its cargo. The driver then shoots the pile of bombs, boom! You just lost all your forces to a 3" reinforcement. Cheese rains from the sky.

Explosives are tricky because they have this potential to operate outside the normal U" limit for weapon activation per turn. I don't want to ban this kind of thing; a truck ridiculously overloaded with bombs is funny. But I'd like to give it some tactical drawbacks. If I can damage your truck full of bombs before it reaches me, I can set off the bombs and eliminate the threat, even if I can't destroy the truck myself.

The other option with reinforcements would be to limit 1 point of XSize per reinforcement brick, but that's hard to give an in-world justification for.
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby ninja_bait » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:34 am

Sorry, let me try and express sarcasm in text.

stubby wrote:Cheese rains from the sky.


Again, I don't see a problem with this.  :troll:

Isn't the limit that f) you have to have a truck with explosives prepared at the start of the battle, g) your commander will have to survive enough turns to pull the stunt, h) you will probably have to beat an Anything I Say Goes roll, and i) your opponent will probably just beat you up IRL if you pull this?

A serious comment about the proposed rule - I don't think the math works right.  

The Artemis carries 116X explosives with a size of 46".  That means I'm always carrying at least 70X more explosive than I'm allowed.  In this battle, the two sides were swapping at least 4 or 5 points of size damage a turn.  Since it is unlikely that I will ever roll higher than 70 with 1d10, I am going to have to blow up at least one missile for each size damage lost.  Each one is going to do the full explosive potential because the Artemis is longer than the explosive radius of the missiles.  So that is going to do a total of 140d10 (that is, 5x(7+6+5+4+3+2+1)d10) against a 4d10 armor.  That is roughly 35 points of size damage, from the first round.

A smaller example - the torpedo boat carries 60X explosives with a size of 13".  That is the point of a torpedo boat.  It probably would take about 40d10 to outright destroy the boat.  You only have to do 4 points of size damage to activate enough explosives to do that.

This nerf would be devastating to me.  I am against it.

What if explosives brought in by a Strategic Intervention are automatically Unstable?  I think that would have the desired effect on the one case you're describing without mucking up regular combat.
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby ninja_bait » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:38 am

Also, I could really cheese you by bringing a single 50X explosive on my truck, so even if you blow it up it will do a 100" radius of damage, which is probably just everything on the field anyway.
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby stubby » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:08 am

ninja_bait wrote:Isn't the limit that f) you have to have a truck with explosives prepared at the start of the battle

Nah, it's whatever you can scrap together in the moment. It helps if you have your reinforcements prepared, but not necessary.

ninja_bait wrote:The Artemis carries 116X explosives with a size of 46".

Wow! That's a lot of explosives. I hadn't really thought about anybody ever having a use for that many, but I guess in these capital ship battles you need a lot more firepower.

ninja_bait wrote:So that is going to do a total of 140d10 (that is, 5x(7+6+5+4+3+2+1)d10) against a 4d10 armor.  That is roughly 35 points of size damage, from the first round.

I'm not sure where those numbers are coming from - are the explosives blowing up other explosives? You're only blowing up 5½ X worth of missiles on average from each point of size damage, and they're doing local damage rather than compounding size damage when they go (at the end of the turn, so you'd also have options to jettison them or fire them off as a response action in theory). I don't know how big your individual missiles are though, if you can only blow them up in chunks of XSize 40 or whatever.

ninja_bait wrote:What if explosives brought in by a Strategic Intervention are automatically Unstable?  I think that would have the desired effect on the one case you're describing without mucking up regular combat.

Maybe the better way to go is to move away from stable and unstable explosives and move to armed and disarmed ones instead. A disarmed weapon would take Power to arm; you couldn't just dump a bunch out and shoot the pile.
Natalya wrote:Wtf is going on in this thread?
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Re: Fleet Forum Battle

Postby ninja_bait » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:21 am

Yeah, I built the missiles before reading the rules.  So they happened to be 7 bricks each, and then I had 14 of them.  Then I had 2 nuclear fat bois that I wanted to be slightly beefier, so I added bricks to them to get them up to 9X.  I don't need it but it looks cool.  They are my answer to the Big Fucking Gun on other SHIPs.

Unfortunately that means that no matter what I roll on that 1d10, I will take a 7X missile hit for each point of size.  Maybe I should just redesign, but my impression is that most creations are carrying too many explosives, though - it looks like Valiant's tank in the rulebook has 34X in ammo, and it's only around 6" long.  I think even the Sonks, with only AA missiles, has 60X vs a 48" size.  I think it would be weird if the first thing that happens in every battle is that a bunch of explosives blow up because you took a couple points of size damage.

I have to admit I ran the explosive damage wrong in my battle - for an explosion, I added up a 7d10 roll with a 6d10 roll with a 5d10 roll etc. until the radius had passed beyond the target, and then took that total with any other damage being done and whittled it down with armor rolls to get the points of size damage.  Rereading the example I see that that is wrong-o.  Run correctly, I'd probably only get damage from the first 3 or 4 blast rings for each explosion, so that'd be roughly 18 points of size damage total in my example.  More manageable but still a weird way to go.

But are you saying that premature detonation doesn't do the radiate out thing?  Based on:
stubby wrote:it immediately goes off, doing its full Explosion Damage wherever it happens to be

I figured the explosion would radiate out normally, but you're saying they only do local damage?  Is that just the first 2" radius?

Armed and disarmed makes a lot of sense thematically for creations carrying explosives.  How do you deal with environmental explosive objects like fuel tanks in this system?  Does damage arm it?
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