Flag Designing

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Duerer
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by Duerer » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:15 pm

This might sound a bit crude but if it's not necessarily related to the IRL NS regime, why not come up with an entirely new symbol and try to come up with some sort of profound meaning for it?
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by AZKAMAT » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:46 pm

Duerer wrote:This might sound a bit crude but if it's not necessarily related to the IRL NS regime, why not come up with an entirely new symbol and try to come up with some sort of profound meaning for it?
No that's a perfectly fair question.

I wrestled with that for a long time before eventually creating the Duality flag. Probably for a year. The problem was that anything I invented would be so esoteric, so obscure that it wouldn't even hint at the anti-totalitarian them I'm going for. And the only relation that the flag I did make has to the NS regime is intended to be one of remembrance. Likewise for the other side.
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by stubby » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:56 pm

AZKAMAT wrote:Why are you are you harping on this when I told you, specifically, that the reason I was bothered by the business with the church boys is because they have autism and have a history of reacting strongly in the negative to body humor? As in the get ill from it.
Yes! I'm asking you to identify with me here. You didn't seem to understand the objection so I'm making an analogy to put you in my shoes. It's not harping, it's trying to find common ground. Your experience and my experience are the same experience.

It wasn't my intention to "trigger" anybody (as you like to say), just as the same as it wasn't your intention to alienate anybody. Either the harmless intention is what matters, in which case my dicks are just as harmless as your swastikas, or the harmful effect is what matters, in which case they're both bad. Either way they're the same thing. The way you're reacting to dicks is the way normal people react to swastikas, and the reason you react that way is that you want to insulate the autistic kids you know, the same way normal people want to insulate the victimized kids they know.

AZKAMAT wrote:There is no moral principal about what to expose kids to generally (my opinion is: anything anytime)
Unless they're traumatized by it, or else why are you worried about making those kids ill? It seems like a sound moral principle to me.

AZKAMAT wrote:THAT is what I got triggered about last night, and the reference you made to me. I don't care anymore about the dick because it's been over with. It all sounded really accusatory toward Valkyrie and the following posts immediately made me think of setting the stage for formalized censorship. Like, we can only make flags from a sanitized pool of stuff.
No, we've always had swastikas and uncensored stuff here, I just want to make sure everybody knows what they're doing. That's a hell of a can of worms to open if that's not the specific subject matter somebody wants to grapple with.

I'm not proposing the sanitized pool as a mandate, but as a more effective way for people to say the specific things they want and avoid all the extra baggage they don't. A lot of the time, people are grabbing a clipart swastika because they're limited to what they can find easily, and it's an easy symbol for evil and war, not because they believe in the white nationalist agenda and its values specifically. If I make a bunch of graphics that are just as easy to copy-paste and are more specific to the kinds of things that lego factions want in their flags, then that's more options, not less. If people have that resource then the only reason they would need to reference nazis is that they specifically want to reference nazis.

AZKAMAT wrote:You also need to understand that your view of the symbols is not the universal one.
I think I'm comfortable mandating that that's the universal one for this board. Anyone who doesn't see a swastika as a symbol of hate probably isn't somebody I want here. There are plenty of other places on the internet people can go and congratulate each other about how open-minded they are about swastikas.

AZKAMAT wrote:And to be frank, you're the only person who's reacted negatively to it so far.
I'm the only person who's reacted negatively to a swastika? Or the only person who's reacted negatively after you explained the backstory and justification? Because I'm not worried about the people who stick around long enough to understand the deep lore, I'm worried about the people who come to my site and see swastikas and turn right back around again. (Or worse, stay because they think their nazi views will be welcome.)

Tell you what, post a bunch of swastikas around your church, without explanation, and see if anyone reacts negatively to them.

AZKAMAT wrote:Now, I like you. But I worry that in this anxiety to protect your site from alt-righters and pepe spammers you're smacking the wrong people as you watch for moles popping out of the arcade machine. That is my true issue. Sending you into a frenzy where you end up targeting people who are trying to be creative with no underlying alt-right (or whatever) agenda is probably one of their goals. Stay calm. Ask us questions about our motives please.
I'm not smacking or targeting anybody, I replaced a swastika with a dick. You keep acting like that's something I did because I wasn't "calm" or "in a frenzy." I did it because it was hilarious, and remains hilarious, and I'll happily do again because it's impossible to feel bad about "ruining" a swastika. Nothing of value is lost. Something that was previously offensive for being evil and a violation of people's human dignity is now offensive for being scatological and a violation of your creative rights. You put swastikas on my thing, I put a dick on your thing, I don't know how you feel like there's a moral high ground to be claimed here.

Anyway asking about motives was the whole point of this thread here. I'm not saying good motives have any power to make bad symbols good again, but I do like to know where everybody stands when it's subject matter that's likely to rise up and bite me in the ass later.
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by Tzan » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:40 pm

Today I watched the Larry David SNL opening bit.

Now I want to see him argue who has the moral high ground.
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by sahasrahla » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:51 pm

i don't think there is a winner in that scenario

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Re: Flag Designing

Post by stubby » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:08 pm

That's the goal. If someone tries for the moral high ground in a brikwars thread, everyone loses
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by Maraxous » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:10 pm

So can my battle cry be DICE VOLT! or not?

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Re: Flag Designing

Post by Venge » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:01 pm

Stubby, I know you meant Piltogg swastikas in your wall of text up there, but just to be clear (I know you know this but some people visting may not), the Nazis were not the first to use the swastika, and in some ancient buildings in South Asia they are actually carved into the decorations. Granted, I haven't seen anyone use the swastika like this on BrikWars, but it is a legitimate symbol in many indigenous cultures to this day (who are pissed at the Nazis for giving it a bad rap).
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by AZKAMAT » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:10 pm

There's a lot in your last post I could continue to split hairs over, but I feel it's a distraction from my main concerns.

6: Do me and you have some kind issue or are we cool? If not, how can we resolve it to where I can still be creative without going over some line? I'm perfectly fine with structuring displays of the Duality to where it comes at the ending of an explanation for example. I was thinking of that for the FSU's armory post in the future.

7: Thanks for clarifying on the repository of flag symbols thing.

Can I offer you some advice?
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by AZKAMAT » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm

TheVengefulOne wrote:Stubby, I know you meant Piltogg swastikas in your wall of text up there, but just to be clear (I know you know this but some people visting may not), the Nazis were not the first to use the swastika, and in some ancient buildings in South Asia they are actually carved into the decorations. Granted, I haven't seen anyone use the swastika like this on BrikWars, but it is a legitimate symbol in many indigenous cultures to this day (who are pissed at the Nazis for giving it a bad rap).
Yes, the Nazis ruined a lot of things for the forseeable future. Including things that were necessary to destroy them, like military professionalism.

Also, lol, I googled "asian swastika" to help clarify differences and I got page after page of Taiwanese people cosplaying as nazis.

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Given how your average skin head actual Piltogg is not often...the brightest sort and is liable to mistake any of those as the NSDAP article and use it as such, it's probably a good idea to prepare your audience somehow or other for its use so you don't have to say, "But it's the Buddhist one, guys! Ah prommiss!"
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by BriksKrieg » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:49 pm

Not to start a new argument but, why are we arguing about the swastika and the sickle+hammer?
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by stubby » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:45 am

It's just this thing we do every once in awhile
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by stubby » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:45 am

AZKAMAT wrote:69: Do me and you have some kind issue or are we cool?
Nah nah, everything's cool. I'm just typing a lot because I tend to process out loud.
TheVengefulOne wrote:Stubby, I know you meant Piltogg swastikas in your wall of text up there, but just to be clear (I know you know this but some people visting may not), the Nazis were not the first to use the swastika, and in some ancient buildings in South Asia they are actually carved into the decorations. Granted, I haven't seen anyone use the swastika like this on BrikWars, but it is a legitimate symbol in many indigenous cultures to this day (who are pissed at the Nazis for giving it a bad rap).
I think most people know this - it's hard to spend more than a week on the internet without running into an open nazi fetishist butting heads with some historical swastika pedant, or a "secret" nazi fetishist using this as an excuse to try to get away with jerking off to a bunch of nazi symbology without having to take responsibility for it.

But that's neither here nor there; this isn't a forum or a game where nuance is ever going to carry. You can write a ten page post and a whole library of wiki entries about how your swastikas are actually tibetan prayer symbols or whatever, and everyone's still just going to see swastikas.

The problem isn't that they only see the broad strokes, it's that you came to a place where the broad strokes are the only thing that matters, and you expected people who are only here for broad strokes to see something other than broad strokes. That's on you, not them; they're doing it right.

And really, if your goal isn't to reference a swastika specifically, why would you use something that looks like one? I can't think of a single one of these symbols where you couldn't communicate the exact same ideas just as effectively with something that doesn't make 90% of people think you're posting a swastika. So if your swastika looks like a swastika I just assume it's by intention.
AZKAMAT wrote:Given how your average skin head actual Piltogg is not often...the brightest sort and is liable to mistake any of those as the NSDAP article and use it as such, it's probably a good idea to prepare your audience somehow or other for its use so you don't have to say, "But it's the Buddhist one, guys! Ah prommiss!"
I don't think this is an audience that can be prepared. Or even should be. Around here, whatever's the shallowest, stupidest surface read is the one that's important. It'd be nice to have space for erudite intellectual hobnobs about arcane and esoteric shades of meaning, but that space can only open up briefly if ever around here, and even if it does it's our obligation to destroy it before it spreads.
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by Venge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:01 pm

I don't expect people to see anything other than broad strokes, hence why I'm not using swastikas.
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Re: Flag Designing

Post by Kommander Ken » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:56 pm

If it was a flashing swastika, there'd be plenty of strokes.

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