BW 2010 feedback

[Keldoclock]

Yeah but if you don't use large creations then what will you do with all the ones you built? I'm not giving up my rad robots for a gameplay advantage.

[Whiteagle]

Yeah but if you don't use large creations then what will you do with all the ones you built? I'm not giving up my rad robots for a gameplay advantage.

EXACTLY!
There wouldn't be much reason to build giant awesome shit if it gets beat out by ten figs hauling a Mega Cannon around...

[Falk]

I think you're missing the point of Brikwars...

[stubby]

Mike, your entire damn Inch system revolves around Action Economy

Wrong. It's not an Action economy, it's an Action x Dice x Range economy. If I spend 1U on a 1U minifig then I get a guy who can deliver (roughly) 2 dice of damage five inches away (or 1 die 10 inches away, depending on if he goes melee or ranged). If I spend 2U on a 2U giant fig, then I get a guy who can deliver (roughly) 4 dice of damage ten inches away (or 2 dice twenty inches away). The numbers change a little bit depending on how you mix your dice between close combat or ranged or defense etc., but in general the effectiveness (in terms of damage delivered x zone of control) of a unit's Action scales with U^2 rather than U.

Now take the case where both players spend 2U. One player gets 2x 1U guys, and the other player gets 1x 2U guy. The 2U guy can outmaneuver the two 1U guys, can hit them from further away, and is still at mostly-full effectiveness after the first hit while one of the two 1U guys is eliminated completely.

2x 1U guys = 2 Actions x 2 dice x 5" or 2 Actions x 1 die x 10" = 20 effectiveness
1x 2U guy = 1 Action x 4 dice x 10" or 1 Action x 2 dice x 20" = 40 effectiveness

This is for minifig-type creatures. There are different tradeoffs for different kinds of vehicles and creatures; tanks have no hands but can fire more guns, birds can fly but can't carry as many weapons, etc. But for the most part this is what the numbers look like - larger-U units get more powerful much faster than smaller-U units. The final number is mitigated a little by higher Use ratings, but that in turn is affected by the size of the targets you're shooting at.


So then the question is, why use the small guys at all, if anyone can see that large guys are such a more efficient use of budget?

Because sometimes it's more valuable to be able to be in several places at once and do several tiny things inefficiently than to do one big thing super-efficiently. A gun that does 10d of damage per turn is wasted against a swarm of 1HP scorpions, etc.

The most effective budget spend, as far as I can see, is to get some big creations for the big-creation stats, get a bunch of minifigs for all the extra Actions, and load them on the big creations so that they can spend their Actions operating the big-creation weapons and maneuvering around at big-creation speeds.

[Valiant]

Have a couple questions for you Stubby.
For a tank, specifically the M1A1 Jackson, does the cannon count as a gun or a launcher? And if it's a launcher, does it still have to take into account the one turn delay for the round to hit the target if further than 12" away? This catch makes sense for artillery, but for MBT's, not as much, especially when the Jackson is modeled after the Abrams, a tank that can fire a projectile that travels over 3000 feet per second.
So, for my tank to maintain the ability for the round to hit in the same turn, should I change the cannon to a 7-8" gun, or keep it under a modified launcher status?

[Silent-sigfig]

I can answer this.

Is it a gun or a launcher? It's whatever you want it to be, just make sure everyone knows what it is.

Does it take another turn to hit targets more than 12" away? officially yeas, but you don't have to follow that rule. It's often easier to ignore that rule.

[stubby]

Usually I just figure it according to the payload. If it's doing direct damage in d6es, it's probably a gun. If it's firing an explosive round that does area effect d10s, then it's probably a launcher.

[Valiant]

Thank you for the clarification.

[stubby]

Does anybody remember why I put in the rule that minifigs can't dual-fire pistols? I'm sure I must have had a reason for that, but damned if I can remember what it was.

[Tzan]

Base is use one thing.
You were forcing them to buy multitasking?

[stubby]

Why would I do that? I think I should get rid of this rule.

[*CRAZYHORSE*]

I don't know, all I remember is that you where very very much against it for some reason and everybody was being booty bothered over it.
Maybe it is OP? What if you make one of those kill chance graphs thingies like you made before and compare it to other ranged weapons.

Personally I just count dual wielding short range weapons as a single two handed short automatic weapon. Give you the ability to spray a small area with wild shots or double down on a single target with "burst fire". The way it plays feels very appropriate to how dual wielding figures would act.

[stubby]

I don't know, all I remember is that you where very very much against it for some reason and everybody was being booty bothered over it.

Yeah, me too. It must have been something important. I can tell you all the reasons I was against it for BW2001, which had a different design aesthetic. But for BW2010-style action, minifigs should be able to do this no problem.

Personally I just count dual wielding short range weapons as a single two handed short automatic weapon. Give you the ability to spray a small area with wild shots or double down on a single target with "burst fire". The way it plays feels very appropriate to how dual wielding figures would act.

This is ingenious, although probably too advanced to introduce in the core rules. I'll treat them as regular dual attacks but add an optional link to the auto-fire chapter.

[Tzan]

Why would I do that?

6. Mike works in mysterious ways?

7. I was just guessing?

8. You wanted all one inch weapons to be equal, is a bow and arrow the same as a pistol?
can you dual fire a bow?


( there is a difference between dual wield and dual fire so I changed that to fire)

[stubby]

Maybe it is OP? What if you make one of those kill chance graphs thingies like you made before and compare it to other ranged weapons.

I did some googling, looks like I already did this once in 2013 (Post 263164):

better chance to hit and still at least do a little damage.

With one big attack, it's either hit and roll all the dice, or miss and roll none.

With two smaller attacks, I still have a good chance of getting half of the damage through, which is often enough to kill.

Well let's check the odds here. We'll say 2 Size 1 Guns versus 1 Size 2 Gun, standard minifig versus minifig.

Size 1 Gun: 3CP Use:3 Rng:6" Dmg:1d6
Size 2 Gun: 6CP Use:4 Rng:10" Dmg:2d6

Firing two 1" Guns, we miss 1/9 of the time, hit with one gun 4/9 of the time, and hit with both guns 4/9 of the time.
Of the shots that hit once, we have a 1/3 chance to kill a minifig target. Of the shots that hit twice, we have a 5/6 chance.
Total chance of killing a minifig within five inches: 52%.

Firing one 2" Gun, we miss 50% of the time, hit 50% of the time.
Of the shots that hit once, we have a 5/6 chance to kill a minifig target.
Total chance of killing a minifig within ten inches: 42%. Not a huge difference, and double the range.

The lone minifig target within 5" is the most generous scenario. Take a minifig in Heavy Armor, or one standing further away, or a Vehicle with an armor rating in d10s, and you see the dual smaller guns lose effectiveness much more quickly than the single larger gun.

For comparison, kill rates against a lone minifig target:

• A pistol has an 11% kill rate at up to 6" for 3cp
  A rifle has a 33% kill rate at up to 10" for 5cp
  Dual pistols have a 52% kill rate at up to 6" for 6cp
  A 2" gun has a 42% kill rate at up to 10" for 6cp (+1cp for Compensating)

So you increase your kill rate by 4.5x if you just add a second pistol. Not bad.

Adding a -1 Dual Pistols skill penalty to compensate would reduce the kill rate to 38%, but it seems like unnecessary overhead.

Kill rates for melee weapons are as follows:

• Hand Weapon, 28% kill rate, 2cp
  Dual Hand Weapons, 66% kill rate, 4cp
  Heavy Weapon, 44% kill rate, 3cp
  2H Weapon, 42% kill rate, 4cp

Again, we see a big jump for dual hand weapons, but there you're paying not only the cost of using up both hands but also giving your opponent more Counter opportunities.

8. You wanted all one inch weapons to be equal, is a bow and arrow the same as a pistol?
can you dual fire a bow?

No, but you also can't dual-wield a bow and a shield the way you can a crossbow and a shield. So all one inch weapons aren't completely equal to begin with.