Limiting SuperNatural dice

[stubby]

I've been trying to think of a good way to self-limit overpowered SN characters, the way multiple Heroes are self-limited by their Egos. What do you think of something like this:

You can have as many 1-die units as you want.
For every 2-die unit, you must have at least two 1-die units.
For every 3-die unit, you must have at least three 2-die units.
Etc.

Forcing powerful supernatural units to be part of a generally supernatural supporting group. The lesser units units may be the more powerful unit's thralls, or regular minifigs with enchanted equipment, or a bunch of enchanted helicopters, whatever.

This would need tweaking, since the numbers would be a little extreme - to get a single 4d archmage, you'd also need four 3d wizards, twelve 2d novices, and twenty-four 1d apprentices. But it would definitely put an immediate game-mechanical pin on how common each power level should be.

Or, I could just pick an arbitrary number and set it at a simple exponential progression - three (N)-die units for every one (N+1)die unit, for example. One 4d high priest, three 3d priests, nine 2d kultists, twenty-seven sacrificial thralls with 1d cursed daggers.

If I tone it down to a simple pyramid support structure (1, 2, 3, etc.), then it would even give me an excuse to finally use that BrikThulhu painting for something.

[Tzan]

While that does create a natural upper limit on high SN characters, its working exactly the opposite from the hero system.
This encourages players to make more SN guys than they probably even wanted, to get that one d4 guy.

Hero system: too many is bad
SN system: too many is good

Its like when Raisin Bran added so many more raisins they choke you.

I know you want a rule thats not just, that d4 guy costs more points, because not everyone uses points.
But you really are just forcing people to make more units, more points, than they originally wanted, maybe.

We'll see what the actual SN dice users think.

[Duerer]

What about abilities and eqquipment, that can negate SN dice, like sacred armor or a war priest's prayer, to ward off black magic?
That would fit pretty good in a crusader-like army and form a nice contrast to magic armies.

[stubby]

Hero system: too many is bad
SN system: too many is good

Sure, but with Heroes I want to limit the number of units, and with supernatural units I want to limit the concentration of dice. Having a whole pile of one-die guys or weapons scattered around doesn't strike me as a big problem, it's that one guy with ten dice all to himself.

[Tzan]

This is sort of like a super heavy death tank.
But you are not requiring a bunch of follower tanks.
These big tanks get whittled down over time with structure damage.

Maybe SN dice get knocked away over time.
Magicians lose power when under attack.

I guess it just seems odd that you'll force people have a particular army size and type to have one guy.

What if the cost of each die goes up, doubling.

[Quantumsurfer]

One issue that arises is that players may not have that many minifigs. I like the idea in concept but I'm not sure it plays well. SN characters are certainly OP as stands. It's such a versatile system that I find myself using it for everything, supernaturally themed or not. I don't need to create new powers from scratch (and then playtest their balance) or use most of the existing ones because SN dice are the bricks that snap together to create most of the powers that I can imagine. The general opinion among players I've played with is that the system is fun because it allows them to be clever and creative in the build and execution of those powers.

I only bring that up to help illustrate the importance of the system to us SN users. While true that players who also have low parts count also can't field Kaplan-sized armies and armored tank divisions or play massive SHIP scaled space battles, I feel like those rules encompass far less breadth. Like, I can probably do more things with SN dice at high or low levels than I can with vehicles at SHIP or minifig bike scale. So, thematically, I love the idea of a horde of supporting, chanting cultists with sacrificial daggers but I probably wouldn't want to take them everytime...especially given the fact that I use the rules for a lot of characters and situations which require low numbers of minifigs.

I notice, though, for all my blathering on the subject that I haven't presented a viable alternative to counteract the power of SN dice. And I feel bad about that, so I'll give it some thought.

[Apollyon]

Maybe SN dice get knocked away over time.
Magicians lose power when under attack.

What if critical fails get (some) of the dice removed. Favours the guy with the pile of 10 SN dice but there might be a viable workaround.

[stubby]

What if critical fails get (some) of the dice removed. Favours the guy with the pile of 10 SN dice but there might be a viable workaround.

Crit fails already hand the dice over to your enemies to use against you, so I've got that lever pulled already. Or did you mean you lose the dice permanently until the end of the battle? That'd be a really funny kind of attrition mechanic.

What if a critfail meant you handed the die to your enemy, and they had to choose to spend it against you immediately and then give it back, or just remove it from the game?

[Quantumsurfer]

What if a critfail meant you handed the die to your enemy, and they had to choose to spend it against you immediately and then give it back, or just remove it from the game?

Say, that's rather nice.

[Tzan]

What if critical fails get (some) of the dice removed. Favours the guy with the pile of 10 SN dice but there might be a viable workaround.

Or did you mean you lose the dice permanently until the end of the battle? That'd be a really funny kind of attrition mechanic.

Yeah, thats what I meant when I said knocked away, like structure level, its removed from the game.
Although I was thinking as a result of an enemy attack, somehow.

[Gungnir]

It might work if you're using a CP cap. The more SN dice you're using, the fewer units you're allowed to have.

[stubby]

Unfortunately I can't use CP to cap anything effectively, since there are too many people who don't use CP at all and would never even notice. I'd rather have a game-mechanical solution.

[Silent-sigfig]

Maybe you could tie it into the size of the unit? A unit can have, say, size*3 SN die, and anything it is holding can boost it.

For instance, a 1" minifig is limited to a 3 sn die, but a 1" sorcerer holding a 2" staff has a maximum of 9 SN die?

What if a critfail meant you handed the die to your enemy, and they had to choose to spend it against you immediately and then give it back, or just remove it from the game?

I like this way of doing things. The more dice there are, the more chances to lose one.

Its like when Raisin Bran added so many more raisins they choke you.

Geezer status confirmed.

[Tzan]

Let me rephrase that.

Its like when Naruto wants to see ladies in the bathing pool, then the Pervy Sage throws him into the middle of the ladies pool and he sees all the naked ladies, then gets the crap beaten out of him.

[*CRAZYHORSE*]

What if a critfail meant you handed the die to your enemy, and they had to choose to spend it against you immediately and then give it back, or just remove it from the game?

I like this way of doing things. The more dice there are, the more chances to lose one.

I prefer just letting your opponent keep the die in his control, only having to return it whenever he decides to use it against you.

That we the die is basically lost but can always reenter the game in a fun way. This also means that when you have lost a couple of die your powers become a little bit more risky and unpredictable to use, as you never know when your opponent will use them against you.

This allows fun and tesnion to stay in the game as just removing play elements is no fun at all IMO.

Maybe you could tie it into the size of the unit? A unit can have, say, size*3 SN die, and anything it is holding can boost it.

For instance, a 1" minifig is limited to a 3 sn die, but a 1" sorcerer holding a 2" staff has a maximum of 9 SN die?

I like something along these lines more. Maybe it doesn't have to be size related but maybe be supernatural item related. So that the limit increases with the amount of supernatural items you have. It would explain superhero capes, sorcerer hats, staffs, witch brooms and overly long beard. It would explain the ridiculous look/outfits of most supernatural figures.
Of course this isn't the limiting game mechanic Stubs is looking for as it doesn't really limit any thing except the practical amount of weird shit you can stuck on a mini-figure.
Although I do like the idea of minfigs looking more ridiculously occult the more powerful they are.