Limiting SuperNatural dice

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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by Tzan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:32 pm

stubby wrote:
  • 6. Count the number of SN dice in the roll
    7. Any die that rolled this number or lower is a Fumble
It super-penalizes big OP effects, and also makes larger dice more reliable than smaller ones.
Ok yes, I should have reread the rules before having opinions :D

It seems that the words "super-penalizes" should have been in all caps, bold, 100 point type.

Not counting is a big enough penalty, 1's are Fumbles, that might get removed from the game.

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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by *CRAZYHORSE* » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:00 pm

stubby wrote:
  • 6. Count the number of SN dice in the roll
    7. Any die that rolled this number or lower is a Fumble
It super-penalizes big OP effects, and also makes larger dice more reliable than smaller ones.
From everything I have read I like this one the best. I would skip the whole idea of actually removing dice from the game as it seems no fun for either party to simply remove game elements. Instead when you keep them in the game they become variables which add more fun and creativity.

Besides it makes sense that the more you overcharge your supernatural powers the more unpredictable they become. It's fun because you can try to push your luck when you really need it.
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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by Battlegrinder » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:26 pm

Has this really been an issue? At least in my experience, powerful units tend to be kinda self-balancing, because they tend to attract more fire than their weaker allies (it's why I scrapped a plan to give officers a small SN dice pool, as it tended to result in the squad I attached them to turning into a fire magnet).

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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by stubby » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:36 am

Voin wrote:
Silent-sigfig wrote:Maybe you could tie it into the size of the unit? A unit can have, say, size*3 SN die, and anything it is holding can boost it.

For instance, a 1" minifig is limited to a 3 sn die, but a 1" sorcerer holding a 2" staff has a maximum of 9 SN die?
I like this. The whole "decked out in magic regalia, clutching artifacts of arcane power..."
Me too. After giving this a couple months of thought, I think I'm going to go with an even harsher version - creatures and creations are limited to 1 die per inch of Size, and every die after that has to be associated to a specific element or elements, just like propulsion systems and controls etc. Superman's cape, a rifle's scope, a spaceship's dilithium crystal, etc.; tying attributes to specific bricks makes the concept a lot more specifically brikwars.

What this means is that characters like Superman are basically impossible without breaking the rules, but I view that as an advantage rather than a drawback. You should have to break the rules to make game-breaking SNOP characters. You get one die for him, one die for the cape, and maybe one die for his S-curl toupee, and for anything past that you have to cheat.

Voin wrote:Personally, I love the openness that the SN mechanic brings to the game. It reminds me a lot of the Mutants & Masterminds RPG point-buy system for superpowers (also effect-based, you name your own descriptor). I use SN dice for a lot more than magic, but primarily super-science. I'll have a spaceship with a power/computer core that has some SN dice assigned to it and (depending on size), maybe even a team of engineers directing it. On one turn we can increase power to weapons. On the next, we might reinforce structural integrity, and so on. It opens a lot of options to emulate the kinds of cinematic space battles we see in Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, etc.
That is one of my favorite specific applications and I really need to call it out directly in the next update of the SN section.
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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by Whiteagle » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:33 pm

Gungnir wrote:It might work if you're using a CP cap. The more SN dice you're using, the fewer units you're allowed to have.
Honestly Construction Points are what got me to using Supernatural Dice in the first place.
When I was trying to stat up the Burn Twins, Blast's Quad-linked Autogun hands had him out costing his brother Slash by a factor of four.
To make up the difference, I gave him an ass-load of SN d4s, so now instead of ducking behind his shooty brother until he gets into choppy range Slash can fire off flaming Sword Slashes Shonen style.
stubby wrote:
Apollyon wrote:What if critical fails get (some) of the dice removed. Favours the guy with the pile of 10 SN dice but there might be a viable workaround.
Crit fails already hand the dice over to your enemies to use against you, so I've got that lever pulled already. Or did you mean you lose the dice permanently until the end of the battle? That'd be a really funny kind of attrition mechanic.

What if a critfail meant you handed the die to your enemy, and they had to choose to spend it against you immediately and then give it back, or just remove it from the game?
I like this method of handling Fumble Die, because it makes them fun for everyone!
We could even rename them Karma Die, every critfail hands that SN Die over to your opponent, allowing him to save them up to spend however he wants.
Thus, ass-loads of SN dice become a double edged sword; Yes they can create big effects, but failure results in handing your opponent free buffs.
stubby wrote:
Voin wrote:
Silent-sigfig wrote:Maybe you could tie it into the size of the unit? A unit can have, say, size*3 SN die, and anything it is holding can boost it.

For instance, a 1" minifig is limited to a 3 sn die, but a 1" sorcerer holding a 2" staff has a maximum of 9 SN die?
I like this. The whole "decked out in magic regalia, clutching artifacts of arcane power..."
Me too. After giving this a couple months of thought, I think I'm going to go with an even harsher version - creatures and creations are limited to 1 die per inch of Size, and every die after that has to be associated to a specific element or elements, just like propulsion systems and controls etc. Superman's cape, a rifle's scope, a spaceship's dilithium crystal, etc.; tying attributes to specific bricks makes the concept a lot more specifically brikwars.

What this means is that characters like Superman are basically impossible without breaking the rules, but I view that as an advantage rather than a drawback. You should have to break the rules to make game-breaking SNOP characters. You get one die for him, one die for the cape, and maybe one die for his S-curl toupee, and for anything past that you have to cheat.
Eh, I don't think so Mike...
While this would prevent a stock Superman Minifig from pulling Silver Age-levels of bullshit, the same is not true for Creations.

Take Slash for example, as a Creation he'd get three SN dice just for his Size, AND THEN he's got a bunch of elements you could start associating die with.
For a Minifig, you could start layering on the Transparent Element Studs like Sir Elton John, and while certainly very Brikwarzy it still rewards the Anoraks.

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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by stubby » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:07 pm

Whiteagle wrote:We could even rename them Karma Die, every critfail hands that SN Die over to your opponent, allowing him to save them up to spend however he wants.
Thus, ass-loads of SN dice become a double edged sword; Yes they can create big effects, but failure results in handing your opponent free buffs.
Yeah, but it's tough to make it feel right in-universe. Superman's heat vision didn't work right, so three turns later a badguy henchman on the other side of the battlefield suddenly gets stronger for no reason? I tried a handful of different ways to link cause and effect here, but they either required too much overhead or just couldn't be made to feel thematically satisfying.
Whiteagle wrote:Eh, I don't think so Mike...
While this would prevent a stock Superman Minifig from pulling Silver Age-levels of bullshit, the same is not true for Creations.

Take Slash for example, as a Creation he'd get three SN dice just for his Size, AND THEN he's got a bunch of elements you could start associating die with.
For a Minifig, you could start layering on the Transparent Element Studs like Sir Elton John, and while certainly very Brikwarzy it still rewards the Anoraks.
I know. I'm not trying to stop people from making SNOP units; they'll do that no matter what rules I put in. (When I say people would "have to break the rules" I'm not imagining that anybody would see that as an obstacle or even a speed bump.)

What I'm trying to do is give people a way forward so that even their gamebreaking OP units fit into brikwars logic and have the potential to be tactically interesting. You've got to make the effort to explain the Kanon of what those studs are and why they grant the powers you say they do. And then one of your enemies kills that minifig and takes his studs, now he's got the power instead. That's the failure that results in handing your opponent free buffs, and he's a lot more likely to feel like he earned them that way.
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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by Tzan » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:26 pm

There is bit of mis-quot-ing go-ing on there.

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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by stubby » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:39 pm

d'oh
fixed
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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by Whiteagle » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:31 pm

stubby wrote:Yeah, but it's tough to make it feel right in-universe. Superman's heat vision didn't work right, so three turns later a badguy henchman on the other side of the battlefield suddenly gets stronger for no reason? I tried a handful of different ways to link cause and effect here, but they either required too much overhead or just couldn't be made to feel thematically satisfying.
Mike, shit like this happens ALL THE TIME in comics!
Sups gets struct by lightning and it somehow temporarily transfers his power to someone random, weird penis's Radioactive Saliva causes Mary Jane to grow four extra arms and eat his face, ect. ect...
It's MAGIC right?
You don't have to explain It being fickle and temperamental is the price you pay for it's power and versatility.
stubby wrote:I know. I'm not trying to stop people from making SNOP units; they'll do that no matter what rules I put in. (When I say people would "have to break the rules" I'm not imagining that anybody would see that as an obstacle or even a speed bump.)

What I'm trying to do is give people a way forward so that even their gamebreaking OP units fit into brikwars logic and have the potential to be tactically interesting. You've got to make the effort to explain the Kanon of what those studs are and why they grant the powers you say they do. And then one of your enemies kills that minifig and takes his studs, now he's got the power instead. That's the failure that results in handing your opponent free buffs, and he's a lot more likely to feel like he earned them that way.
Yeah, and I get that...
The issue is the tactical vulnerabilities of such a setup.
Minifigs would end up with their "Power" Elements rather exposed, so the 12 LBT Stud Electrical Generator on Shockman's back could simply be knocked off with a called component damage shot.
Not only does this render the Generator Null (because Shockman or someone else is going to have to waste an Action putting it on, which is worse than it being useless, it's outright BORING) but it results in Anoraks' building such SN Power Sources at the center of their Super Heavy Death Tanks.

Meanwhile with Karmic Dice, if said Anorak stuffs all his SN Dice on Emperor Sheev, I can save up all his failed Force Lightnings and then use them to make him explode.

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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by stubby » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:13 pm

Whiteagle wrote:Mike, shit like this happens ALL THE TIME in comics!
Sure. A lot of things happen all the time in comics that don't make for a satisfying experience for players. If you just want lolrandumb, then WISG and Heroic Feats have already got that covered and there's no need to make a whole secondary system with SN dice.
stubby wrote:The issue is the tactical vulnerabilities of such a setup.
Exactly. This system means that players can make specific decisions with specific objectives in mind, rather than just waiting for the next random thing to happen and hoping things just magically turn out well for them without ever having to make a decision or put in effort.

To put it a different way:

When the SN elements can be targeted by enemies, their weakness is based on rewarding the enemy for taking action, and punishing you for failing to control the tactical situation.

When the SN dice can be lost by you using them, their weakness is based on punishing you for taking action, and rewarding the enemy for just sitting there.

Do I want to reward the player who takes action, or the player who waits to benefit from the action of others?

In games where the players who don't act have the advantage, everyone stops doing anything, and nothing happens. It's the single biggest danger for BrikWars, since the game is too open-ended to force any strictly defined objectives to push the action along, and so it has to depend on mechanics that make players want to be proactive rather than passively reactive.

Passive players are dead weight that kill whatever activity they're part of, and every system needs to be designed either to force their rehabilitation or to repulse and eliminate them from the group as quickly as possible.
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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by stubby » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:27 pm

Whiteagle wrote:Minifigs would end up with their "Power" Elements rather exposed, so the 12 LBT Stud Electrical Generator on Shockman's back could simply be knocked off with a called component damage shot.
Not only does this render the Generator Null (because Shockman or someone else is going to have to waste an Action putting it on, which is worse than it being useless, it's outright BORING)
It doesn't take an Action to pick up dropped equipment. If your enemy knocks off your SN elements without a follow-up plan to take advantage of it, then that's his own fault.
Whiteagle wrote:but it results in Anoraks' building such SN Power Sources at the center of their Super Heavy Death Tanks.
Well I should hope so! That's how a SHDT would be built in real life, don't you think? I'd be kind of disappointed otherwise.
Whiteagle wrote:Meanwhile with Karmic Dice, if said Anorak stuffs all his SN Dice on Emperor Sheev, I can save up all his failed Force Lightnings and then use them to make him explode.
Ugh, talk about "outright boring." Defeating Emperor Sheev without even having to bother showing up is the definition of everything I want to avoid.
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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by Whiteagle » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:23 pm

stubby wrote:
stubby wrote:The issue is the tactical vulnerabilities of such a setup.
Exactly. This system means that players can make specific decisions with specific objectives in mind, rather than just waiting for the next random thing to happen and hoping things just magically turn out well for them without ever having to make a decision or put in effort.

To put it a different way: when the SN elements can be targeted by enemies, their weakness is based on rewarding the enemy for taking action, and punishing you for failing to control the tactical situation. When the SN dice can be lost by you using them, their weakness is based on punishing you for taking action, and rewarding the enemy for just sitting there. Do I want to reward the player who takes action, or the player who waits to benefit from the action of others?

In games where the players who don't act have the advantage, everyone stops doing anything, and nothing happens. It's the single biggest danger for BrikWars, since the game is too open-ended to force any strictly defined objectives to push the action along, and so it has to depend on mechanics that make players want to be proactive rather than passively reactive.

Passive players are dead weight that kill whatever activity they're part of, and every system needs to be designed either to force their rehabilitation or to repulse and eliminate them from the group as quickly as possible.
Mike, I can understand you wanting to use positive reinforcement to promote proactive play, I do, but you are neglecting that tactical control is 90% setup.
If my literally magical Power Source is my biggest vulnerability, then it's going to become a higher priority for DEFENSE.
As it is my believe that EVERYONE has a little bit of Anorak in them, Natural Selection is then going to favor Creations Designs that turtle these Power Sources deep beneath bricks and armor.
You're going to end up promoting giant block blobs with Supernatural Element Cores razing everything else.
It'd be like a Death Star with no Exhaust Port; An unfun super weapon that doesn't blow up if hit just right, but instead either needs to be slagged via a huge conventional attack or faced with an equal or greater super weapon.
stubby wrote:It doesn't take an Action to pick up dropped equipment. If your enemy knocks off your SN elements without a follow-up plan to take advantage of it, then that's his own fault.
Still, that would just lead to a game of keep away; Either the enemy outright destroys said Elements or keeps you chasing after them if they can't recover them for themselves.
Thus, such Elements are not only NOT BEING USED, they are actively detracting from the bloodshed (even if this does contribute to the mayhem).
This also still unfairly favors Creations over Minifigs.
stubby wrote:Well I should hope so! That's how a SHDT would be built in real life, don't you think? I'd be kind of disappointed otherwise.
Well then we end up getting into what I just mentioned; Nofun Super Weapon Creations that are encrusted in bricks and armor that use their SN Cores for everything else.
You'd basically have to blast your way to the Core to access those SN Elements, and if you can amass the firepower to do that why not kill the Creation outright?
stubby wrote:
Whiteagle wrote:Meanwhile with Karmic Dice, if said Anorak stuffs all his SN Dice on Emperor Sheev, I can save up all his failed Force Lightnings and then use them to make him explode.
Ugh, talk about "outright boring." Defeating Emperor Sheev without even having to bother showing up is the definition of everything I want to avoid.
Well the idea here is to play on the Anoraks' own abuse of Averages.
With the current Fumble system, he'd be dolling out small Force shocks and buffs, since you can only sabotage those Fumbled Dice that turn.
Hell, an Anorak might not even BOTHER with Sheev, instead fielding a bunch of Emperor's Feet each with two or three SN Dice apiece, as no single Fumble could drastically harm his army as a whole.
Karmic Dice, however, throw a wrench into all of this, as ALL the Fumbled Dice could be collected and then spend as the Anorak's opponent sees fit, so neither could a singular SNOP unit or huge SN lowbie force afford to spend their SN Dice stringently every turn for fear of a HUGE Karmic Backlash.
SNOPs would be better off GOING BIG and dealing with minor complications, even if said complications turn their huge SN Dice Pools against them, while huge SN Lowbies forces really have to think twice about using Supernatural Powers to doll out a large number of small generic buffs.

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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by stubby » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:58 pm

Whiteagle wrote:It'd be like a Death Star with no Exhaust Port; An unfun super weapon that doesn't blow up if hit just right, but instead either needs to be slagged via a huge conventional attack or faced with an equal or greater super weapon.
Which makes it no different than an SHDT with no SN dice. But there are no creations like that in BrikWars; every propulsion system and exterior weapon is an exhaust port as far as component damage is concerned.

Really, you're going to have to convince me that the problems of tying SN dice to elements is worse in some way than not tying them to elements. The problems you describe with the SHDT are not any better if I make it so that the SN dice can't be affected and stolen by enemies at all, rather than just being somewhat difficult to affect and steal.
Whiteagle wrote:
stubby wrote:It doesn't take an Action to pick up dropped equipment. If your enemy knocks off your SN elements without a follow-up plan to take advantage of it, then that's his own fault.
Still, that would just lead to a game of keep away; Either the enemy outright destroys said Elements or keeps you chasing after them if they can't recover them for themselves.
Thus, such Elements are not only NOT BEING USED, they are actively detracting from the bloodshed (even if this does contribute to the mayhem).
Like I said, it doesn't take an action to pick them up. If they knock them off and you pick them up again, they're being used just as much. It hasn't even slowed you down.

If they knock them off and they pick them up, then they're being used just as much.

If they destroy them, then they're not being used any less than if they'd just used their attack to kill you instead.

But I don't really see that happening most of the time. Most of the time, I expect that enemies aren't going to target your SN elements at all. They're going to kill you, and then loot the SN from your corpse. Which means the SN will get used way more than if they all just disappear when you die.
Whiteagle wrote:This also still unfairly favors Creations over Minifigs.
By this logic, there's not a weapon or system in the whole game that doesn't unfairly favor Creations over minifigs. Should we remove creations entirely?
Whiteagle wrote:
stubby wrote:Well I should hope so! That's how a SHDT would be built in real life, don't you think? I'd be kind of disappointed otherwise.
Well then we end up getting into what I just mentioned; Nofun Super Weapon Creations that are encrusted in bricks and armor that use their SN Cores for everything else.
You'd basically have to blast your way to the Core to access those SN Elements, and if you can amass the firepower to do that why not kill the Creation outright?
Indeed! Why wouldn't you kill the Creation outright, and then take the SN elements as your just reward? This makes the game more awesome as far as I'm concerned.
Whiteagle wrote:Well the idea here is to play on the Anoraks' own abuse of Averages.
With the current Fumble system, he'd be dolling out small Force shocks and buffs, since you can only sabotage those Fumbled Dice that turn.
Yeah, limiting the sabotage is important. That way (except in very, very rare cases where all the dice fumble at once) the fumble dice are only decreasing the SN dice's positive advantage to the active player, rather than becoming a completely unearned asset to the shit passive player.

I don't think I can impress upon you enough how far I'm willing to go out of my way to prevent the "emperor blows himself up without the shit player having to do anything" result. That is a game-ruining nightmare.
Whiteagle wrote:Karmic Dice, however, throw a wrench into all of this, as ALL the Fumbled Dice could be collected and then spend as the Anorak's opponent sees fit
This is never going to be something I want to happen. I like the idea of the opponent getting those dice to spend, but only if he does the work to get them. He should never be able to get them without working.

Players need to feel like they're achieving their victories through their own efforts or there's no point in playing the game. And the converse, if players feel like other people are handed victories for doing nothing, it makes all the victories they put in work and effort towards feel just as stupid and worthless as the shit player's.
Whiteagle wrote:SNOPs would be better off GOING BIG and dealing with minor complications, even if said complications turn their huge SN Dice Pools against them, while huge SN Lowbies forces really have to think twice about using Supernatural Powers to doll out a large number of small generic buffs.
I don't want SN units thinking twice. It sucks to give players a cool toy and then make it so they won't want to use it. I want it to be potentially hilarious, but still always better to attempt to use than not to.
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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by Silent-sigfig » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:10 pm

I don't know if this is in the thread already, but a unit should be able to hold it's size in SN die before having to tie SN die to specific elements.

EDIT:

Also Whiteeagle brough up a good point: A wizards SN die should be tied into it's head (specific element) so that you can carry a decapitated wizard skull around for an SN bonus.
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Re: Limiting SuperNatural dice

Post by RedRover » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:28 pm

Silent-sigfig wrote:I don't know if this is in the thread already, but a unit should be able to hold it's size in SN die before having to tie SN die to specific elements.

EDIT:

Also Whiteeagle brough up a good point: A wizards SN die should be tied into it's head (specific element) so that you can carry a decapitated wizard skull around for an SN bonus.
So A wizard minifig with a staff has 2SN dice, but then he put another magik gemstone on his staff for 3SN. If another non-magik fig gets the staff they only get 2SN dice.

I think a usage pentalty for picking up magikal items you are untrained in is a good idea too. If a wizard dies and a random, untrained, minifig picks up the staff, I think that fig should get the same SN dice the staff would grant the wizard but maybe a usage penalty because he's not magically trained.

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