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Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:20 pm
by Arkbrik
Theblackdog wrote:So here's a basic issue that nonetheless comes off as confusing.
When attacking with a weapon, your Action Roll needs to be Greater than or equal to the weapon's UR. So if you roll equal to the UR, it's a successful roll and a hit.
But your Damage roll needs to be Greater than your target's Armor value- so if you roll equal to the target's Armor, it's a failed roll and no damage.

You could justify this based on the physical nature of whatever-it-is the Action and Damage rolls are supposed to represent - but from a game design perspective, it would probably be best if a roll equal to the target value consistently meant either success or failure.
THIS

I would prefer greater-than-or-equal-to since that's how most games do it

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:27 pm
by Tzan
Increase all armor values by +1, then do it your way.

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:51 pm
by Arkbrik
I already did and I love it, I recommend it to everyone

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:43 pm
by stubby
But then you lose all the funny equal-to effects like chopping limbs off. I love chopping limbs off!

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:23 pm
by ninja_bait
I agree that a uniformly greater-than-or-equal-to system is better. Reinforce that attackers win ties, so you get more destruction, and it doesn't preclude equal-to effects, since it basically says you keep the limb for this roll and all rolls below that value.

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:31 pm
by Theblackdog
stubby wrote:But then you lose all the funny equal-to effects like chopping limbs off. I love chopping limbs off!
I think this points to a deeper issue, which is that different people will use the BW rulebook for vastly different things.
Some players will use it for smaller, RPG-style games where these kinds of amusing injuries add to the gameplay.
Others will use it for massive set-piece battles with hordes of infantry and vehicles, where keeping track of limb loss or anything more complex than "is this guy dead? (Y/N)" is a chore, except maybe on their Hero.

The best thing to do is probably just to refer to the law of Fudge, and say that whether equal rolls kill or injure is up to the players and circumstances.

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:39 pm
by ninja_bait
Also, I just noticed that the hero's movement is a non-standard 7", which can't be measured with a 16-stud brick.

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:22 pm
by Tzan
I am happy with armor being the thing you have that needs to be rolled over.

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:41 pm
by Bragallot
The current system still comes off as natural to me because the item isn't resisting being used, the armour however is resisting being penetrated so the roll has to exceed it. Out of all the things people could be confused about in BW, I'm surprised that would confuse anyone. A '4' killing your 4 armour dude seems way less natural. A 4 would naturally block a 4. The number would have to represent something other than armour for that to work.

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:59 pm
by stubby
The current system is designed around the idea that armor is a roll also. You roll damage first, and then you roll armor to equal or exceed the damage. It just became confusing when minifigs' 1d6 armor was simplified to a static 4.

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:11 pm
by Arkbrik
And that's why I made all armor static numbers. Except Heroes.
Craigallot wrote:The current system still comes off as natural to me because the item isn't resisting being used, the armour however is resisting being penetrated so the roll has to exceed it. Out of all the things people could be confused about in BW, I'm surprised that would confuse anyone. A '4' killing your 4 armour dude seems way less natural. A 4 would naturally block a 4. The number would have to represent something other than armour for that to work.
D&D has Armor Class that the attacker has to equal or beat, Warhammer expresses rolls as 3+, 4+ etc. "Equal or higher" rolls seem a lot more common to me than "higher" rolls.

And I was just going to make the argument that "equal or higher" makes Overkill calculations easier, but turns out Overkill rules are crazier than I thought.
The Rulebook wrote:12 points of Damage is enough to kill multiple minifigs if they all happen to be standing in the line of fire.

12 Damage kills the first minifig. After overcoming his 4 Armor, 8 points of Overkill Damage remain.

8 Damage kills the second minifig. After overcoming his 4 Armor, 4 points of Overkill Damage remain.

4 Damage is enough to match the third minifig's Armor but not defeat it. The remaining minifigs survive.
So the first two minifigs take 4 damage to kill, but the last minifig takes 5 damage?

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:36 pm
by RedRover
Is there a way to rig some sort of contraption that, upon opening the rule book, a spring loaded fist makes its aquantiamce with one’s mug?

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:09 pm
by stubby
Arkbrik wrote:So the first two minifigs take 4 damage to kill, but the last minifig takes 5 damage?
Obviously not, that would be CRaAaAaZY!

The first two minifigs take any number over 4 damage to kill. They safely absorb 4 points without harm; it's the fifth point that kills them and keeps going. Whatever damage continues on is reduced by the 4 points they absorbed.

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:42 pm
by stubby
Theblackdog wrote:
stubby wrote:But then you lose all the funny equal-to effects like chopping limbs off. I love chopping limbs off!
I think this points to a deeper issue, which is that different people will use the BW rulebook for vastly different things.
I've been thinking about generalizing the damage = armor options so it's not just for minifigs.
  • Damage lower than armor = no effect
    Damage higher than armor = lethal effect (death / size damage / etc)
    Damage equals armor = non-lethal effect (disruption / disarming / etc)
Chopping limbs off is obviously the funniest result in brikwars and in life, but it's fiddly so I never want to make it mandatory. Knocking somebody over, knocking away an item, or rendering an item Inoperative is pretty basic though, not requiring an extra rules system or extensive disassembly the way dismemberment does.

It's probably as simple as letting the defender decide the effect, limited to whatever the attacker was targeting (e.g. I can't choose to detach a flak cannon if the attacker was targeting my tank tread).
  • 6. Target dies or takes damage as if the damage roll had succeeded (not usually the most tactically advantageous, but defenders can choose this to save time and overhead).
    7. Target is lethally wounded, but can finish the turn before dying.
    8. Target is Disrupted.
    9. A held weapon or device is dropped. The target can pick it up on its next turn without any special cost.
    10. An attached weapon or device is rendered Inoperative. The target can spend an Action to reactivate it.
    11. An attached limb, weapon, or device is detached. The target will need a Medik or Mechanik to reattach it, as appropriate.
    12. The target is knocked silly and becomes Incompetent for a turn (Action:d4, potential Stupidity)
    13. Any other funny effect, as agreed by players.

Re: BW 2018 Feedback

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:49 pm
by Cakeman
RedRover wrote:Is there a way to rig some sort of contraption that, upon opening the rule book, a spring loaded fist makes its aquantiamce with one’s mug?
Ahh, the well known "spring surprise"!