BattlePack Stats

[piltogg]

how bout the indy motorcycle chase (i have already purchased two)

[Foggy]

how bout the indy motorcycle chase (i have already purchased two)

With a please and a thank you!

[Rayhawk]

Actually, that's not a bad idea: you could say that all four of the Star Wars packs work that way! Since there's always a zillion of them in any given movie scene, any trooper or droid in a Battle Pack matchup may respawn at home base on its next turn, or some rule to that effect.

Hey, I like that a lot. I may have to re-write the Cannon Fodder rule from the Ninja Scum card to incorporate the respawning idea.

I wish I could find the Penny Arcade comic where the ninjas wonder why they have to go through the secret door one at a time and get killed, rather than all rushing the hero at once and maybe having a chance to win. But that's what I picture with Cannon Fodder respawning.

[Carrnevil9]

Wouldn't happen to be this one, would it?

[Rayhawk]

Wouldn't happen to be this one, would it?

Whoa! You beat Almighty Benny to the link!

[Foggy]

Wouldn't happen to be this one, would it?

Whoa! You beat Almighty Benny to the link!

Maybe an award is in order?
Or a best out of three?

[Almighty Benny]

Wha? What happened... Where am I? I think I've been kidnapped. I'm currently being held hostage in a basement somewhere. Fortunately there happens to be a computer in the room. I'm tied up but lucky for me I can type just as well with my toes. I have no idea where I am but it smells like burning plastic and there are Mecha everywhere...

[Carrnevil9]

*Achievement Unlocked*

>_>

<_<

Ladies and gentlemen, please move along, nothing to see here...

[Edit] This makes my second incursion into 'cluttering up' the thread belonging to Foggy. I am filled with deepest regret and... pizza... I need pizza... *wanders off*

[Rayhawk]

So right now my thinking is along these lines. Obviously you can just play it straight and use these dropships for rapid deployment of standard troopers. But... instead, what if they're specifically for cannon fodder?

Cannon Fodder: In any epic battle, you need an inexhaustible supply of extras running around getting killed to show just how epic the battle really is. These guys get no lines (other than the occasional "aaaaaaaaaaaaugh"), their names are not in the credits, and there's no chance of them ever seeing any residuals from the movie rights. They exist so that you can have tons of killing without having to lose any of the main characters too quickly, and most of the time, when they die, they don't even leave bodies behind. They just turn upside down and drop off the bottom of the screen while the mysterious words "100 pts." appear briefly above the spot where they fell.

A Cannon Fodder unit has no Armor rating. If it is hit by an attack, even attack that does no damage (for instance, foam rubber Ewok arrows in Return of the Jedi), the unit is killed instantly and removed from play as if completely vaporised. However, on the next turn, the unit respawns with its health and equipment intact at the appropriate spawn point.

So in this case, the idea would be that the dropship is the spawn point. Whenever all the dropship troopers have been killed and the dropship has been flown off the map, the player can load it up with new troopers and fly it back in from any point on the edge of the map.

Either the dropship and pilot are standard (non-Cannon-Fodder) units, in which case the way to stop the endless respawns of Cannon Fodder is just to destroy the dropship, or else they are also Cannon Fodder and you can respawn by either flying the dropship off the map or letting it be destroyed. In which case I don't know how you would stop the endless respawns.

Now I think this is the great start to an idea, but it raises the following questions, and that is cool because it means I get to make another list.

• 1. How do you determine the cost for a Cannon Fodder unit?
  
  2. How much damage should they be able to do? It might be game-breaking to let units constantly respawn with some uber-weapon, but if I limit them to something like attacks that always do exactly 1 point of damage (which seems to be how it works in a lot of movies) they're not going to have much practical use other than absorbing bullets.
  
  3. Should a CF be able to RedShirt for a non-CF unit?
  
  4. How much freedom should they have? I think there should be limits on how much a CF is able to do anything unique or noteworthy, because that's the job of main characters. But I can't think of any way to put this into an actual rule.
  
  5. Outside of the specific dropship example, what's the best way to handle respawns? Respawn each unit individually or wait until you can respawn a whole group at once? And do you need to declare / purchase specific spawn points?
  
  6. How do you stop CFs from just respawning forever? (Or do you need to?) Does it have to be like a game of Gauntlet, where you run around destroying spawn points? What if the spawn points are put in places where you can't get to them?

[Matt]

I can't believe I've never played with cannon fodder units before! It sounds like a heck of <a href='http://tinyurl.com/y42zurt'>alot</a>'a fun!

[Foggy]

1. How do you determine the cost for a Cannon Fodder unit?
A: Easy. The cost of the unit.

2. How much damage should they be able to do? It might be game-breaking to let units constantly respawn with some uber-weapon, but if I limit them to something like attacks that always do exactly 1 point of damage (which seems to be how it works in a lot of movies) they're not going to have much practical use other than absorbing bullets.
A: They can only be equiped with small weapons or pistols.

3. Should a CF be able to RedShirt for a non-CF unit?
A: Abso-f*cking-lutely.

4. How much freedom should they have? I think there should be limits on how much a CF is able to do anything unique or noteworthy, because that's the job of main characters. But I can't think of any way to put this into an actual rule.
A: Can only perform Lackey cliche tasks. Shoot at other lackeys and get shot.

5. Outside of the specific dropship example, what's the best way to handle respawns? Respawn each unit individually or wait until you can respawn a whole group at once? And do you need to declare / purchase specific spawn points?
A: You start off with a "spawn pool". If there's any in there, you roll 1d3 to see how many you get to spawn that round. A spawn point would cost you more than a Hero.

6. How do you stop CFs from just respawning forever? (Or do you need to?) Does it have to be like a game of Gauntlet, where you run around destroying spawn points? What if the spawn points are put in places where you can't get to them?
A: Yep, Gauntlet style spawn point breaking. The spawn points must be on a common playing area. Playing with pirate ships? The spawn point is in the hull. Playing in a battlefield? Spawn in the main bunker.

[Carda]

1. How do you determine the cost for a Cannon Fodder unit?

Since they're generally only there to be bullet sponges, a CF unit should cost less than your average minifig; say 1 or 2 points cheaper per CF.

2. How much damage should they be able to do? It might be game-breaking to let units constantly respawn with some uber-weapon, but if I limit them to something like attacks that always do exactly 1 point of damage (which seems to be how it works in a lot of movies) they're not going to have much practical use other than absorbing bullets.

Here's an idea: each turn, you make one roll for all your CF units. It scales based on how many CF units you have: 1d1 (for a grand total of 1 damage) if you have 1 CF, 1d2 for 2, 1d4 for 3 or 4, etc. etc. until your rolling 1d20 per 20 CF units (or part thereof, so if you had 21 CFs in play, you could roll 2d20). The result of the roll (after Bonus rolls) is the total amount of damage dealt by your CF units that turn. That damage may be divided as you wish amongst any targets within range of any of your CF units (because even stormtroopers get lucky shots occasionally).

3. Should a CF be able to RedShirt for a non-CF unit?

Why not? He's just coming back next turn anyway...

4. How much freedom should they have? I think there should be limits on how much a CF is able to do anything unique or noteworthy, because that's the job of main characters. But I can't think of any way to put this into an actual rule.

This one's easy: give them Half Mind (Simple), with the directive of "Shoot anything that isn't your team."

5. Outside of the specific dropship example, what's the best way to handle respawns? Respawn each unit individually or wait until you can respawn a whole group at once? And do you need to declare / purchase specific spawn points?

This could depend on the scenario. If you're playing something that involves territory control, each control point could double as a spawn point; if you don't hold any spawn points, you can't rez your CF units. Other game types could simply have a rez point in each team's base (away from any critical points like flags; no one likes to have twenty guys drop in on top of them all at once when they're going for a flag... then again, that would be pretty funny).

6. How do you stop CFs from just respawning forever? (Or do you need to?) Does it have to be like a game of Gauntlet, where you run around destroying spawn points? What if the spawn points are put in places where you can't get to them?

You could set up a rule where spawn points must always be accessible to the least capable unit on the field. And capturing SPs is a fun option as well; if you hold multiple spawn points, you get to spawn any of your CF units at any friendly SP.

[Rayhawk]

1. How do you determine the cost for a Cannon Fodder unit?
A: Easy. The cost of the unit.

But part of a unit's cost is based on whether it has high or low Armor, while for all CF units Armor is cancelled. Maybe I should have CF as an alternate Structure Level Zero, for the purposes of calculating cost. (Which means that for standard minifigs and other Armor:1d6 creations, the calculations would all come out exactly the same.)

2. How much damage should they be able to do?
A: They can only be equiped with small weapons or pistols.

That's a good idea. If a CF is carrying a larger weapon, it's left behind when he's killed and the next time he respawns he'll only have a small one. Just like video game badguys leaving behind a power-up.

3. Should a CF be able to RedShirt for a non-CF unit?
A: Abso-f*cking-lutely.

Yeah, I don't know why I even asked this question, that was pretty obvious.

4. How much freedom should they have?
A: Can only perform Lackey cliche tasks. Shoot at other lackeys and get shot.

This is one of the reasons that limiting them to 1-damage-point weapons is attractive from a game-balance perspective, besides cutting down on die rolls - it means that they'd be perfectly effective at fighting enemy cannon fodder, but they'd really have to gang up to have any hope of killing anyone important. But it just doesn't feel right, unless you know that both sides will have tons of CF units in play. Maybe I just need to make it an option, special CF weapons that cost zero CP in case players know that they're going to have that exact type of battle.

Maybe Cannon Fodder just need the one caveat "Can Never Save the Day." A lackey who retrieves the Skully Grail can only toss it to a "real" minifig before dying tragically for some contrived reason; he can't bring it back to Goddamelot himself. Actually maybe that's a good rule to flesh out.

• Tragic Death: Cannon Fodder can never save the day. They can only participate in a heroic effort if they can find a way to pass all the credit for heroism to a "real" minifig and then die at the end of the turn. A Tragic Death is the only time a CF unit is allowed to have lines of dialogue, so that it can deliver its poignant last words.
  
  Most importantly, because Cannon Fodder can't save the day, they can never win a battle by themselves even if they keep respawning until the end of time. Whenever there are no more "real" units on their side, the battle is lost.

5. Outside of the specific dropship example, what's the best way to handle respawns?
A: You start off with a "spawn pool". If there's any in there, you roll 1d3 to see how many you get to spawn that round. A spawn point would cost you more than a Hero.

So as the CFs die off they get collected in a pile somewhere, and only get to respawn again at the rate determined by the spawn point? That's interesting, I like that. I don't agree that the spawn points should have to be that expensive though, I think the main cost of respawning units should be in paying for the units themselves. For a spawn point I'd set the CP cheap, equal to the maximum number of units it can spawn in a turn (or the average number, for a die roll).

6. How do you stop CFs from just respawning forever? (Or do you need to?) Does it have to be like a game of Gauntlet, where you run around destroying spawn points? What if the spawn points are put in places where you can't get to them?
A: Yep, Gauntlet style spawn point breaking. The spawn points must be on a common playing area. Playing with pirate ships? The spawn point is in the hull. Playing in a battlefield? Spawn in the main bunker.

On further thought this problem might solve itself; by nature spawn points will end up being easy for attackers to reach because they have to be easy for respawning units to get out of.

Man, this could totally work.

[piltogg]

a nice idea would be to have it like in halo you can respawn an infinate amount of times but always start with crappy or no weapons but if you manage to find the grav hammer you will own a few people before you die again.
as for damage I would say just half whatever they roll
as for how they respawn it realy depends on the cannon fodder if it is an alien spices who is takeing over the planet they spawn from hives if they are stormtroopers they spawn from dropships if they are castlemen they spawn from castles if they are babys they spawn from women. its easy and simple that way.

[Rayhawk]

1. How do you determine the cost for a Cannon Fodder unit?
Since they're generally only there to be bullet sponges, a CF unit should cost less than your average minifig; say 1 or 2 points cheaper per CF.

That was my initial instinct, too, since I'd like them to feel "cheaper" than regular units. But at the same time, they respawn forever, so you're effectively buying an immortal unit, which should be a lot more expensive.

2. How much damage should they be able to do?
Here's an idea: each turn, you make one roll for all your CF units. It scales based on how many CF units you have: 1d1 (for a grand total of 1 damage) if you have 1 CF, 1d2 for 2, 1d4 for 3 or 4, etc. etc. until your rolling 1d20 per 20 CF units (or part thereof, so if you had 21 CFs in play, you could roll 2d20). The result of the roll (after Bonus rolls) is the total amount of damage dealt by your CF units that turn. That damage may be divided as you wish amongst any targets within range of any of your CF units (because even stormtroopers get lucky shots occasionally).

I like this idea, it's nice and elegant, but I worry about how I would still take their Skill rolls into account. I'd like it to still be easier for them to hit a sandcrawler than a jawa ("Only imperial stormtroopers are this precise"). I'm going to give this some more thought though.

One thing I'm thinking of is limiting spawnable equipment to 3CP. If they're carrying more than 3CP of equipment when they're first purchased, the most expensive item is left behind when they die. This will allow medium hand weapons or combinations of a small weapon and shield, but anything bigger will just quickly become booty for the other team.

5. Outside of the specific dropship example, what's the best way to handle respawns?
This could depend on the scenario. If you're playing something that involves territory control, each control point could double as a spawn point; if you don't hold any spawn points, you can't rez your CF units. Other game types could simply have a rez point in each team's base (away from any critical points like flags; no one likes to have twenty guys drop in on top of them all at once when they're going for a flag... then again, that would be pretty funny).

Looking at it that way, maybe shutting down a spawn point should just be as easy as touching it (with a non-CF minifig, specifically) to convert it to your side. That'd make them a lot easier to deal with than if we had to give them armor ratings and destruction rules and so forth.