Star Wars VII [SHHH they're not supposed to Know that]

[Silent-sigfig]

you could always argue that Kylo was weakened after taking a bowcaster bolt to the chest and dueling Finn

Not really an argument considering throughout the film they show how powerful the Boecaster is, and they also show him bleeding.

[Keldoclock]

you could always argue that Kylo was weakened after taking a bowcaster bolt to the chest and dueling Finn

Not really an argument considering throughout the film they show how powerful the Boecaster is, and they also show him bleeding.

Another broken rule! Han shouldn't have been able to shoot the bowcaster, or it should have broken his arms or something.

[Falk]

you could always argue that Kylo was weakened after taking a bowcaster bolt to the chest and dueling Finn

Not really an argument considering throughout the film they show how powerful the Boecaster is, and they also show him bleeding.

Yeah that's what I meant. I'm ok with Rey not loosing to Kylo because he was weakened from the bowcaster shot.

[stubby]

I like the way this kids' movie trolls the most repulsive elements of the adult fandom by bending the supposed "rules."

I figure the big Awakening that Snoke was talking about was the lightsaber scene. We know that the lightsaber has a certain amount of will of its own, thanks to the residual Force of the galaxy's two most powerful Force users. I expect that they'll explain later that the influence "forced" on the holder by the lightsaber worked to fill in some of the gaps from lack of training, or at least planted the seeds.

[M220]

you could always argue that Kylo was weakened after taking a bowcaster bolt to the chest and dueling Finn

Not really an argument considering throughout the film they show how powerful the Boecaster is, and they also show him bleeding.

He shouldn't have been bleeding because a blaster bolt consists of gas being heated to plasma, then accelerated to high speeds. The blaster bolt would have singed Kylo's wound shut. But no, they had to go for the dramatic Hollywood approach, "He's bleeding! The Antagonist is wounded! Oh look he's getting up. Must be a tough nut to crack."

(On the contrary, he's rather weak considering I have yet to recall a Sith Lord or even apprentice to have even been scratched by a blaster [this being within the original saga])

[stubby]

He shouldn't have been bleeding because a blaster bolt consists of gas being heated to plasma, then accelerated to high speeds. The blaster bolt would have singed Kylo's wound shut. But no, they had to go for the dramatic Hollywood approach, "He's bleeding! The Antagonist is wounded! Oh look he's getting up. Must be a tough nut to crack."

Nah, burn wounds can bleed pretty badly, even if the surface is cooked well done. Sub-surface blisters growing and bursting, or motion of any kind really, can tear that singed tissue right open no problem.

(On the contrary, he's rather weak considering I have yet to recall a Sith Lord or even apprentice to have even been scratched by a blaster [this being within the original saga])

There is a force skill for absorbing blaster fire without effect, but it's the same as the skill for absorbing force lightning without effect, and I can think of at least two prominent Sith Lords who didn't fare too well against force lightning.

Really the only times I remember Siths not getting scratched by blaster fire, they were either blocking it with their lightsabers or their blaster-proofed robot hands. Ren had no problem blocking bolts with his angstsaber when he was paying attention, but he might have been preoccupied for some reason and distracted in that specific scene.

[stubby]

Look guys, obviously I am best girl - I have the japanese school girl costume and I am more than willing to get it out again.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Don't say I didn't warn you . . .

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Well just hold on a second there missy. You're not the only one here with bearded best girl photos:

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@ Star Wars:
A recent topic that got brought up online is that Rey might be considered a "Mary Sue" character because she's "implausibly good" at lots of things in the movie and shows herself to be incredibly competent. Critics of this viewpoint, and the concept of a "Mary Sue" in general say that basically every action hero ever -- Ahnuld, Stallone, Statham, Reeves, Lee, etc are all "Gary Stu" types instead, and that criticizing Rey for being a total baddie is sexist and hypocritical because no one bats an eye when someone like Ricky ties the tendons in his arm back together with his own teeth and then uses his arm in a fight.

She used the force without training. That is breaking a Star Wars rule. Critics are just booty bothered that people are pointing out flaws in something they like. Mary Sues can only exist inside the context of a fictional universe with consistent rules; they are Sues because they break the rules set in the series because they're just that awesome. That's the deal.

[Natalya]

[M220]

Seconded.

[Keldoclock]

The rest of it's fine. It's just the force use that bothers me. They could have fixed it with like 2 minutes of extra background on Jakku.

Even throwaway lines like "I used to hit swamp rats back at home" are O.K. Similarily Han Solo is old enough (to have graduated from thief to smuggler-pilot, coming from the same planet as Wedge, a planet known for good pilots), so it's implied. I don't mind, for example, Rey having precise accuracy with the blaster despite it being established she's never touched one in her life, because of The Force. That's fine. It's Star Wars, the heroes always hit and the villains always miss. Don't use this tumblr bullshit to excuse bad storytelling. It's not even really bad, just less good than it could be. This image meme is trying to suggest that people are complaining that the world revolves around the protagonists or that the protagonists is exceptional- nobody is coming into Star Wars expecting that. Even the "normal" guys like Finn are exceptional (although I didn't like that Finn knew how to lightsaber. He should have had a unique style, maybe he could have tried to use the lightsaber like a fencer with thrusts instead of cuts, or used it to cut and slash wildly. Really if we just replaced all the movie fight choreographers with fencing coaches or fencing amateurs I would enjoy swordfights in movies much more).

Obviously nobody is saying that this movie must be total shit because it has a Mary Sue, or a character that is marysuish. Because Rey is definitely Marysueish. That's not an unforgiveable sin for a writer or anything, but to pretend this is an illegitimate criticism based on sexism is delusion. Like, you could make some argument that there is some critical lack of female role models for kids (a weak argument, considering I looked up to women too as a young kid, I think both boys and girls try to emulate the "cool older sister" figure) and so this is permissible, but like, it would not have been hard to throw in some more foreshadowing or background. Literally like 2 minutes. Or if you wanted to do the lightsaber brain imprint thing, that could work too, but they should have thrown in some other stuff; like, she picked up little tics and habits from the lightsaber also. Perhaps, a craving for blue juice or a desire to go to Toshi Station

It's just about taking care with storytelling, and making things neat. That's all. J.J. Abrams, maybe he is not as much of a nerd as we are, and that's a little disappointing. Maybe some scenes were cut. Maybe some scenes were planned but never filmed due to lack of money. Who knows? But this is a little minus that puts this movie a little further on the mediocre side of good, and not the great side of good.

Let me clarify: the reason mary sues are bad is because they're predictable and boring. There's 2 more movies where maybe something interesting can be done. Anakin is an interesting character because of his changes over the series. Same for Luke. Something interesting could be done here too. As I said initially, I would rather the writers have been bolder and tried a little bit more actually new stuff. Maybe I can even dream about perhaps they could try doing smarter stuff, but I don't really expect Star Wars to be smart.

[Apollyon]

What bothered me again watching the movie for the second time was a few people laughing at Keylo Ren when he lifted his mask. What is wrong with them? Are they expecting Vin Diesel or whatever generic jerk?

[RedRover]

We don't even know Rei's full backstory yet. I'm okay with her just getting the powers, it seems like if the force was "awakening" to balance dark and light, it could just be like, "fuck ya, I'll make this girl badass." After all, a force user is strongest when they just let go, and Rei had few to no attachments at that point.

[Duerer]

What is wrong with them? Are they expecting Vin Diesel or whatever generic jerk?

I think they might have expected Ainsley Harriott to pop up:


After seeing that flick, my brother stated several times, that he didn't like Kylo Ren, because he was trying to be as cool as Darth Vader and failed mostly. But that's the reason, why I liked this character and thought, that the actor made a good job, with portraying a perfect in-universe Vader fanboy.

[stubby]

Don't use this tumblr bullshit to excuse bad storytelling.

I'm not excusing it, I'm putting it in context. Star Wars is about a specific type of bad storytelling. Trying to add consistency to the Star Wars formula would make it less consistent. Trying to turn Star Wars into great cinema would destroy everything that makes Star Wars great.

No, I think one of J.J. Abrams' greatest advantages is that he's got plenty of nerd credibility, but he doesn't let it seduce him into inappropriate reverence for the material. I mean yes, he could have found ways to avoid alienating the toxic fanboy canon lawyers, but what would that get him? He'd be stuck in the situation where the toxic fanboys still feel invested in the property, which is the exact opposite of anything anyone wants.

This is a Disney property now, and I guarantee they're not interested in letting their four-billion-dollar investment in a kids' IP become the latest province of last generation's adult fanboy gatekeepers trying to dictate who is or isn't elite enough to enjoy it. I wouldn't be surprised if they specifically asked J.J. to break canon for the specific purpose of disinvesting the adult troglodytes as fast and as hard as possible, so the rest of us could enjoy the movie without having to feel like we're associated with them.

At a certain level I almost think the new movie went with the trio of non-straight-white-guy protagonists, not because of "diversity" or some strategy to grab to a wider audience (although I'm sure those are nice perks), but just as a tactical move because it's the fastest way to repel that class of "YOU MUGGLES AREN'T ALLOWED TO ENJOY THIS" nerd-supremacists.

Obviously nobody is saying that this movie must be total shit because it has a Mary Sue, or a character that is marysuish. Because Rey is definitely Marysueish. That's not an unforgiveable sin for a writer or anything, but to pretend this is an illegitimate criticism based on sexism is delusion.

Every major character in every Star Wars movie is a mary sue. If she's not a mary sue, then the movie misses the spirit of star wars. It's an illegitimate criticism regardless of gender.

If a writer makes a star wars script where the characters aren't mary sues, he's a shitty writer who didn't bother to understand what his job was.

it would not have been hard to throw in some more foreshadowing or background. Literally like 2 minutes. Or if you wanted to do the lightsaber brain imprint thing, that could work too, but they should have thrown in some other stuff; like, she picked up little tics and habits from the lightsaber also. Perhaps, a craving for blue juice or a desire to go to Toshi Station

Because everybody loved when they did that with the midichlorians.

I don't think I could have taken 2 more minutes of exposition on top of everything else; I think the movie already ran way long for the amount of content it delivered. At least as far as the theater experience went, I think one thing it definitely didn't need was any more time spent on exposition. I've heard that a ton of expository stuff got cut out though, so maybe it'll all end up in the director's cut for home viewing.

Let me clarify: the reason mary sues are bad is because they're predictable and boring.

In some contexts. In a Star Wars context, they're the reason millions of people go to see the movie rather than just thousands. People are handing over their money exactly because of that predictable, unapologetic wish fulfillment. If I take my grade-school kids to go to see Mary Sue VII and there are no Mary Sues in it, all that is is a giant disappointment for everyone. We're not coming out of that theater thanking the studio for delivering complex, challenging media that none of us asked for or wanted.

[Keldoclock]

Trying to turn Star Wars into great cinema would destroy everything that makes Star Wars great.

I think you must have missed the link at the end of my post.

No, I think one of J.J. Abrams' greatest advantages is that he's got plenty of nerd credibility,

Bro, I think you are underestimating just what kind of sweaty turbonerd I am.

Every major character in every Star Wars movie is a mary sue. If she's not a mary sue, then the movie misses the spirit of star wars. It's an illegitimate criticism regardless of gender.

Star Wars characters are archetypical heroes; you can check all of these boxes without making the reader groan at the predictability:


Unusual circumstances of birth; sometimes in danger or born into royalty
Leaves family or land and lives with others
An event, sometimes traumatic, leads to adventure or quest
Hero has a special weapon only he can wield
Hero always has supernatural help
The Hero must prove himself many times while on adventure
The Journey and the Unhealable Wound
Hero experiences atonement with the father
When the hero dies, he is rewarded spiritually

Why did we enjoy these stories the first time we heard them? There must be a reason, some sort of ideological layer-cake that makes it palatable and interesting the first time and not later. Likewise there must also be some sort of quality gradient. There must be ways of tricking the viewer into thinking they will see something different, some way to use nuance to deliver a more fulfilling experience, even if you are determined to not actually subvert the idea.

midichlorians

The parody video alone redeems this immeasurably, but, there is a difference between hinting at pieces of a greater truth and just delivering a fictional encyclopedia article; the latter is the death of any science fiction.

Let me clarify: the reason mary sues are bad is because they're predictable and boring.

In some contexts. In a Star Wars context, they're the reason millions of people go to see the movie rather than just thousands. People are handing over their money exactly because of that predictable, unapologetic wish fulfillment. If I take my grade-school kids to go to see Mary Sue VII and there are no Mary Sues in it, all that is is a giant disappointment for everyone. We're not coming out of that theater thanking the studio for delivering complex, challenging media that none of us asked for or wanted.

I return to my initial points:

It's episode 4 again. I don't like it when people treat IP cautiously. Just go nuts. If it sucks, it just means people won't watch it, which is for the better anyways.

I know why they did it, and it's a completely reasonable thing for them to do. I just want to have my mind blown, and am not attached enough to the series to watch 6/10s.