Discussion: Your thoughts on Lego's kid-ifying of themes

[Av4l4nChE]

@AZKAMAT

On the matter of that Hoth set, I kind of get you. To be honest, it looks like they just threw together a lot of the smaller Hoth-themed sets together (Hoth wampa cave, Snowtrooper battlepack, fragments of that Echo base set like 2 years ago, and wasn't there a set of the trenches with the different turrets recently, as well? I knew there was one waaay back for the 10 or 15 year anniversary, I forget which) into one moshpit of snow battle-ness.

Not sure if I hate or love that. On one hand, here's a good way to get up to date on all the Hoth sets you've missed over the years, while (maybe?) saving some money, rather than scouting and finding each individual set on Ebay or Bricklink.
On the other hand, it seems like yet more evidence of Lego running out of ideas, and reverting back just another form of re-issue.

[sahasrahla]

yeah complaining about more girl lego or speculating about reasons why there are more girl lego makes no sense to me.

and yeah the hoth set was dumb

i have really mixed feelings about the death star set too, but i definitely can't accuse it of being "kiddified"

[Av4l4nChE]

Let me also be the first to say: Duerer, those lady figs look uberdope. I envy your collection, good sir.

[stubby]

I guess my beef with Lego doing the female head thing isn't that they're doing it, if that makes sense. It's why. I'm glad we get more prints, and thus more customization options (although personally I get more use out of male pieces than female as a whole). If it's for captalizing on the current market BECAUSE of the current "women's equality" stuff going on, recently, I say, "why Lego, you sly dogs! Re$pect! Cunning! Capitalizm!" But if they're doing it just so they don't get labeled as non-inclusive, I say, "why Lego, you numbnuts!"

Wait, didn't you just say not to bring politics into this? Nothing you just said makes any sense.

Lego wants money. Girls have money. Girls are more likely to buy products that they can see themselves in, rather than always having to play someone else's story. When more girls buy Lego, Lego gets more money. What does any of that have to do with anything you were just saying? Are you saying that people buy products because of "women's equality stuff" and not because they want the products? Like "I would never buy lego normally, but I have no choice but hand over my rent money when I see women's equality products because politics controls my decisions" ? I'm not at all seeing where you're coming from on this one.

I don't know how bringing the sets closer to real life is "female-flooding the non-licensed themes." Not even all the way closer, just halfway. There are still lots more boys than girls in the playthemes. After all the "female-flooding" it's still wrong. If Lego was making Formula 1 cars with two wheels and then started using three, would you be complaining about "wheel-flooding?" Or would you say "well it's still not right but at least they're starting to correct the error" ? Or would you say "okay but seriously Formula 1 cars have four wheels, making them with less just looks stupid" ?

[Venge]

I guess my beef with Lego doing the female head thing isn't that they're doing it, if that makes sense. It's why. I'm glad we get more prints, and thus more customization options (although personally I get more use out of male pieces than female as a whole). If it's for captalizing on the current market BECAUSE of the current "women's equality" stuff going on, recently, I say, "why Lego, you sly dogs! Re$pect! Cunning! Capitalizm!" But if they're doing it just so they don't get labeled as non-inclusive, I say, "why Lego, you numbnuts!"

Wait, didn't you just say not to bring politics into this? Nothing you just said makes any sense.

Lego wants money. Girls have money. Girls are more likely to buy products that they can see themselves in, rather than always having to play someone else's story. When more girls buy Lego, Lego gets more money. What does any of that have to do with anything you were just saying? Are you saying that people buy products because of "women's equality stuff" and not because they want the products? Like "I would never buy lego normally, but I have no choice but hand over my rent money when I see women's equality products because politics controls my decisions" ? I'm not at all seeing where you're coming from on this one.

I don't know how bringing the sets closer to real life is "female-flooding the non-licensed themes." Not even all the way closer, just halfway. There are still lots more boys than girls in the playthemes. After all the "female-flooding" it's still wrong. If Lego was making Formula 1 cars with two wheels and then started using three, would you be complaining about "wheel-flooding?" Or would you say "well it's still not right but at least they're starting to correct the error" ? Or would you say "okay but seriously Formula 1 cars have four wheels, making them with less just looks stupid" ?

I see your point, but I don't think Lego's priority is bringing things closer to real life, at least, not while "ninjas in mechs fighting ghosts/pirates/snakemen" is still a theme. Besides, if their goal was realism why would they make the Lego Friends sets 90% female? No, their goal is targeting the "girls buy toys to" market.

[Av4l4nChE]

Nah, bro. That was AZKAMAT. I was the one saying I was glad we could talk politics/differing opinions without jumping down one another's throats .

Are you saying that people buy products because of "women's equality stuff" and not because they want the products?

I was saying that about Lego's making of the minifigs, not the consumers consuming them.

Meaning, If Lego is making an increase in female figs to balance the screwup you mentioned earlier, and to capitalize on the current market, I understand that.
I was just saying that if they initiated this increase to avoid being labeled as non-inclusive company, it would just make me lose some respect for 'em.

I'm with you on the increase in female figs. I think my problems (not that they matter too much, just what I think)are:
1: I get less use out of female figs, so in my mind, I'm like, "man, instead of two dudes and two girls(in a set, for example), I could've gotten three dudes and one girl!"

2: This is a completely different but similar vein, but just tell me if I'm getting to pushy with my opinion, and I'll shut it, but here goes...
Also, I'll throw out this disclaimer: I know all of these themes are fiction; imaginary worlds and circumstances that anyone can imagine, and have little or no basis in reality.

My other thing is: In my mind (which maybe I base things TOO much in reality) women don't have the same variety or amount of jobs as men in real life.
Here's a couple reasons that I thought of on my own:
A: in some infrequent cases, their physical differences (like serving in the US military up until 2013)
B: less amount of women holding jobs in the long run, due to having children and/or opting to take on the "stay-at-home-mom" role.
(There's another reason I used to remember, but I can't right now)
Here are a couple more detailed articles if anyone cares:

Spoiler

Show

https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagnes ... fa99702596
https://fee.org/articles/truth-and-myth ... r-pay-gap/

Keep in mind, these articles deal mostly with the pay gap, but there are elements I found while reading that are applicable to this, namely the mentions of why women take fewer jobs than men, at least in the first article. The second one is mainly more about the pay gap, just food for thought.

To sum it up, in my mind, I can't help but think when I see one of the more equal sets, "would there really be equal girls to guys doing (XYZ job)?"

Anyhoo, that's just my opinion, take it or leave it, I don't mind. Just don't get TRIGGERED over it, my dudes!
After all, this was just supposed to be a friendly chat about Lego's current trends.

[stubby]

1: I get less use out of female figs, so in my mind, I'm like, "man, instead of two dudes and two girls(in a set, for example), I could've gotten three dudes and one girl!"

Yeah, this is my question. It's not about why Lego did it or about why sales doubled after they did. It's about why you're objecting to it. What use do you get out of a male minifig that you can't get out of a female minifig? How is having a greater variety less valuable to you? What exactly are you objecting to here? You're presenting this like the rest of us should be saying "oh, obviously!" but none of this seems obvious to me.

My other thing is: In my mind (which maybe I base things TOO much in reality) women don't have the same variety or amount of jobs as men in real life.

I don't think this is true. I've worked just about every job you can name, and there were women in all of them. Maybe if you're in the deep south or somewhere, but the rest of the world has moved on, and Lego can't make its sales quotas if it's only selling to the world of fifty years ago.

Here are a couple more detailed articles if anyone cares:

Spoiler

Show

https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagnes ... fa99702596
https://fee.org/articles/truth-and-myth ... r-pay-gap/

These aren't articles. It's fee.org and the forbes opinion pages. The first is a Koch propaganda outlet and the second can be contributed to by any blogger with an opinion. They're the equivalent of dailykos on the one hand and huffpo on the other. Neither is fact-checked. It may be that there are responsible journalistic outlets that report on what you're talking about, but these aren't two of them.

To sum it up, in my mind, I can't help but think when I see one of the more equal sets, "would there really be equal girls to guys doing (XYZ job)?"

And I'm saying, most of the places I've worked and lived, there generally are. But even if there weren't, it's just - why do you care so much? Why would anyone be bothered by this one way or the other? I'm trying to understand why you're so TRIGGERED over it.

[Av4l4nChE]

I'm not triggered, bro. I didn't start the female fig thing (maybe I did, but I don't remember it...) but I was just adding my two cents on why I don't like it as much.
I don't really have a specific reason why I prefer male figs to female figs, just a personal preference. Not trying to be, like sexist or anything. I just prefer using a larger proportion of male figs in my stuff. I also have always owned less female minifigs, so I guess I've been kind of hardwired to prefer them.

I don't doubt you have waay more work experience than I. But, ( and this is a legit question, not meant to continue the argument ) have the women number the men equally in your work experience? If not, what would be your rough guess, taking into account your job variety? Again: legit question, I'm curious.

I won't lie, I didn't look too far into either article, past quickly reading to see if the Forbes post have passing reasons as to why women work less as a whole, but if you'd like, I can search for more reputable sources.

One last time: I guess in my eagerness to talk with the people on here that I've seen build for a few years, I tried to get all, "in-depth discussion-y" too quick. It may have made it look like I care a whole lot more about the whole girl minifig thing than I actually do. I just threw my opinion into the mix, but I guess I didn't clarify properly earlier on. My bad!
Hopefully this will clear it up!...?

[stubby]

I'm not triggered, bro.

I was making fun of you for using TRIGGERED in the first place. You don't have to defend yourself, you can be triggered or not triggered if you want.

I don't doubt you have waay more work experience than I. But, ( and this is a legit question, not meant to continue the argument ) have the women number the men equally in your work experience? If not, what would be your rough guess, taking into account your job variety? Again: legit question, I'm curious.

Some places yes, some places no? This is a short question with a long answer. In the place I'm at now there are twice as many women as men, but it's a design department. In construction and road work and security back in the nineties there were generally more men, in manufacturing and assembly there were generally more women, when I was a computer programmer there were more men pre-2000 and more women post-2000. In design firms and working on farms and ranches there were just about always more women, in film production and advertising and catering it tended to be about equal. (I can't even remember all the different kinds of jobs I've had; for a long time I used to move to a new state and start over every couple of weeks.)

When I started at Lego concept lab and in Lego product development it was relatively equal, when I was working on Lego Universe it was 90% men at the start of the project and 50/50% by the end of it, now that I'm at Lego USA HQ it's probably 70% women. Almost all of the lawyers, doctors, scientists, and police officers I know personally are women, and my military friends split pretty close to 50/50. Especially after 2000 or so, I can't draw a line between which jobs were supposed to be men or not, or which ones I'm supposed to be surprised by. Maybe not everyone has the same experience? But I've worked an awful lot of jobs in an awful lot of places.

[Venge]

Ok, enough of the "wage-gap" and "equal representation" stuff here, it's getting too complicated. Let's look at the primary reason that these themes were this way (90% male) in the first place shall we?

The fact is, most of Lego's themes are action based, and thus tend to be more heavily male professions due to basic biology. Think about it, yes there are female soldiers, action heroes, ninjas, pirates, etc., but the majority of them were and are, both in Lego and irl, male. This is primarily due to biology (no, not the patriarchy), guys tend to be more aggressive, muscular, stronger, etc., making them better suited for combat and high-stress physical activities. Meanwhile girls on the other tend to be less aggressive, less strong (in general, I know there are women that could kick my ass and yadda yadda) and more suited to raising children because that's what evolution shaped them to do.

Now, I'm not saying women can't be soldiers, action heroes, ninjas, pirates, etc., I'm just saying that more males than females are going to be more inclined to do those things, in the same way that, yes, guys can raise kids, it's just that they aren't as biologically hardwired for it as girls. It's not that girls are weak or that guys are dumb, it's just that our species has been shaped by evolution to be this way. There are other species where the females are bigger and stronger and the males are weaker and less aggressive, but those species aren't making Lego sets, and thus this is why things are the way they are.

[stubby]

Except we were talking about the non-IP stuff - City and suchlike, which are marketed equally to both boys and girls. In the actiony sets it's still five dudes to every lady. (How many of the ninjago ninjas are women? How many of the nexo knights? Etc.)

But the actiony themes aren't based in reality in any case. They're fiction. The only reason the characters are men is because some fiction writer decided they should be men and have super ninja powers and dragons. Nothing about those themes is based on "biological reality," just on what markets well. If five women to one man sold better, then the sets would be five women to one man instead.

[Venge]

Except we were talking about the non-IP stuff - City and suchlike. In the actiony sets it's still five dudes to every lady. (How many of the ninjago ninjas are women? How many of the nexo knights? Etc.)

Now, city, I mean, I don't know, but in the real world I still see five dude garbage men to every lady, and five dude cops to one lady cop. I wouldn't have a a problem with more lego female garbage men (garbage women? garbage people?) but I still see more dudes than ladies doing that stuff irl.

[Av4l4nChE]

@stubby

Dude, you worked on Lego Universe?!? That's so dope! I wish it would've went on longer. Did it die because people weren't willing to pay the fee? I never got to play it, but I thought the concept was amazing. I also liked the whole "build your own creations in your personal space that your bros can view" thing. I guess they kind of replicated it on Lego Worlds, but I really wish Lego would take another stab at a more multiplayer-centered game ( not necessarily MMO ).

[Av4l4nChE]

Also, I sure enjoy talking in depth Lego-related stuff with you guys. I guess I've been deprived of such conversation for most of my building career. The only person I could ever talk Lego in depth with was my best friend ( the one that play the Aliens faction in the game I posted ) but he's since grown out of Lego.

@TheVengefulOne That profile pic is awesome. Never heard any of their stuff, but that album art is pure metal.

[Venge]

Gamma Ray is a great introduction to the Power Metal subgenre.